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View Poll Results: How credible is the quote ascribed to Jeffries?
Certainly true. 4 21.05%
Likely true. 2 10.53%
Hard to say. 4 21.05%
Likely false. 7 36.84%
Certainly false. 2 10.53%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-09-2011, 07:38 PM   #31
burt bienstock
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
How do you blatantly duck someone who was Knocked out by choynski and beaten by Hart. If Jeffries ducked anyone it was Hart or Choynski, both of who beat Johnson, and one of whom actually drew with Jeffries. In those days, you didnt become considered the best fighters, by beating a series of lower ranked fighters. You had to beat the higher ranked fighters.

Look at Johnson's record. by the end of 1903, he had lost to Choynski, decisively (the hightest rated fighter he fought). And he also Lost to Griffin and couldnt defeat Griffin in several tries. The same Griffin who Jeffries had knocked out in his debut fight, as a teenager.

Then to make matters worse, after a excellent run, some of whom with hindsight were known to be brilliant, he fought and lost to Marvin Hart who was his first real top rated challenger.

Dont get me wrong, I am a huge Johnson fan, and with hindsight i wish the fight was made and it would have been the best fight available. But, it wasnt a blatant ducking.




This is not a fact at all. Blacks didnt get the cinderella Jimmy Braddock style title shots, that is true. But Jack Johnson managed to earn his title shot. Peter Jackson didnt get a title shot, but he did get his chance to fight Corbett and was considered the world champion by many. No others really were good enough and could actually beat the best white fighters of the time. That has more to do with them not getting a shot than the colour line. The main guys to suffer because of the colour line were Lanford, McVey and Jeanette and their problem would have been with Johnson. Also Wills had a minor problem as well, but it is not as bad as many state. It was really just a fallout in fight negotiations.



Yes, but they were not good enough to dominate at the time in question! The top black fighters did fight the top white fighters it is just that they didnt win as much as you seem to think they would. And nowadays, it is the former Soviet fighters who are dominant. Does this mean that we should draw a line through all previous eras where these fighters were not dominant.
U,you make a valid point. During Louis's time most of the top heavyweight challengers were white. After the reign of Louis most of the top heavyweights were black as the more affluent big white 200 pounders persued an education
and went into other lucrative and safer sports as baseball and football. How to explain today's complete dominance of the heavyweights by the Russian bloc?
Are they better athletes than today's American black athletes, or is there is there other reasons,for this dominance today ?
One other point i must make : I might be wrong BUT I think the pendulem
has swung so far to the other side, that infers that any white heavyweight of the past, somehow were truly INFERIOR, and NEVER deserving of the
heavyweight championship,and deserve an asterik on their record...Wrong, wrong, wrong...To set the record straight, Joe Louis, COULD have and DIDN'T
give a shot to Lee Q Murray, Harry Bobo, Lem Franklin,Jimmy Bivins, Curtis Shepherd,etc. Were Louis white, today's PC group would be accusing Joe Louis of racial bigotry, and demeaning his greatness, I truly believe .
Or for that matter Ray Robinson,COULD of and SHOULD of given money shots to such worthy black fighters of his time as Charley Gurley, Eddie Booker,Bert Lytell, Holman Williams, Kid Tunero etc. Fighters who were so superior to so
many, many white victims of Ray Robinson. Why were Louis and Robinson exempt from the taint of "racism",avoiding many black worthies ? Why always a Jeffries, a Dempsey,always get lambasted for not fighting a black contender, whilst a Louis [my favorite heavyweight], nevertheless gets a pass ? I believe in fairness regardless of race and origin..What say you ??
of avoiding these great black contenders of bigotry
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Old 05-09-2011, 07:40 PM   #32
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
To Janitor and Boilermaker, i think you are missing the general point i am trying to make....

What i am saying is that in general, in that time, blacks had less opportunity and potential to even begin to succeed, in anything. The not being able to fight for the title is just the icing on the cake. Right up until the civil rights movement the playing field was not level. Yet still before that, blacks had dominated the Heavyweight division since the colour line was broken. And after that they certainly dominated.

Only recently, in this era now, the playing field has changed, as the white eastern europeans are now poorer than the blacks, pehaps. Though they are still up there. White America isn't.

BUT in Jeffries era, the scale was almost vertical. And that diminishes the era greatly.
That's fine, and very noble, but to be worth anything in our endevour you need to get into specifics.

What fighters lost because they weren't afforded chances? The ones Janitor describes that were eliminated, or some other fighters? Or are you saying these men never even turned pro? Because historically, the most economically afflicted ethnic minorities have been the ones to produces the best fighters, not the worst.
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Old 05-09-2011, 07:42 PM   #33
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
The weight argument is a load of irrelevant rubbish, imo.

If Johnson was worried about his weight, he should have done more pushups and less running. Why should a fighter be given a higher ranking just because he puts on more weight?

I think it is safe to say that the jeffries who drew with Choynski starts a heavy favourite against the Johnson who was Ko d by Choynski. My whole problem is not with Johnson (as i am a huge fan) it is with the idea that Jeffries blatantly ducked Johnson. How do you duck a fighter who was Kod a couple of years ago by a fighter you beat, who couldnt beat the fighter you knocked out as a teenager on debut despite several tries, and who was outpointed recently by Marvin Hart. It just isnt possible.

In fact, i dare say that if Jeffries had fought and beat Johnson (and johnson retired on the spot), he would be ridiculed for taking the fight and ducking Hart or others.
This makes no logical sense.
But we are not talking about that Johnson are we?
We are referring to the Johnson who went from 4th Oct 1901 till 5th March 1905 having 19 fights without a loss and beating the likes of
Childs x2
Kennedy
Gardner
Russell
Martinx2
McVey x3
Butler
Black Bill ,during that time
We are talking about a man who then lost one very debatable decision to Hart,then went another 10 years and 40 fights before losing again at the age of 37.
During the time scale given ,1901 -1905 Jeffries had 4 defences, 2 were against men 36, and 39 years old ,both coming out of extended retirements, men he had allready beaten one was to Ruhlin who had been kod in 6 rds by Fitz ,15 months earlier the other was to Munroe who was nothing. are you seriously suggesting that between 1901 ,and 1905 Jack Johnson did not deserve a title shot?
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:02 PM   #34
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
That's fine, and very noble, but to be worth anything in our endevour you need to get into specifics.

What fighters lost because they weren't afforded chances? The ones Janitor describes that were eliminated, or some other fighters? Or are you saying these men never even turned pro? Because historically, the most economically afflicted ethnic minorities have been the ones to produces the best fighters, not the worst.
I am saying they might not have even turned pro.

Yes that is true. But blacks in that time were a little more than just economically afflicted. They were half a generation fresh out of slavery and still persecuted as an inferior people. It is alot more than just being economically afflicted in this case.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:02 PM   #35
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
That is exactly the problem with you.

Any value judgment you make about a fighter that clouds your assesment of them will diminish you as an analyst. I don't agree with a lot of the things that King Henry VIII did, but I will still give a dispasionate asesment of his strengths and weakneses as a monarch.

And your point about Jeffries claim to the title being diminished is pure nonsense. The best black heavyweights around when Jeffries won the title were:

George Byers (knocked out by welterweight Tommy West)

Bob Armstrong (beaten by Jeffries)

Frank Childs (beaten by Jeffries acording to some papaers)

There is absolutely no doubt that he was the best heavyweight on the planet when he won the title.
The best black heavyweight from October 1901 until March 1905 was undoubtedly Jack Johnson, during this period Jeffries defended his title 4 times against 2 men he had allready beaten both of whom were coming out of extended retirements ,one was 36 the other 39.the other 2 challengers ,were Ruhlin who had been kod in 6rds by Fitz 15months previously, and tough man calibre Jack Munroe.
The best black heavyweight around when Jeffries was champion in this 4 year time scale was undoubtedly Jack Johnson ,as his record at that time will emphatically confirm.

So since Jeffries would not fight Johnson during this period ,I think it fair to say he ducked him.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:16 PM   #36
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
This makes no logical sense.
But we are not talking about that Johnson are we?
We are referring to the Johnson who went from 4th Oct 1901 till 5th March 1905 having 19 fights without a loss and beating the likes of
Childs x2
Kennedy
Gardner
Russell
Martinx2
McVey x3
Butler
Black Bill ,during that time
We are talking about a man who then lost one very debatable decision to Hart,then went another 10 years and 40 fights before losing again at the age of 37.
During the time scale given ,1901 -1905 Jeffries had 4 defences, 2 were against men 36, and 39 years old ,both coming out of extended retirements, men he had allready beaten one was to Ruhlin who had been kod in 6 rds by Fitz ,15 months earlier the other was to Munroe who was nothing. are you seriously suggesting that between 1901 ,and 1905 Jack Johnson did not deserve a title shot?
Sorry but Fitz towers above these guys in 1899-1904. Sharkey was more accomplished than anyone on that list during that time period. Corbett too, though Corbett was surely past his best for the re-match in 1903. Johnson can be viewed a a top contender from say mid 1903 to the 1905 Hart loss.

Take note, Jeffries smashed Munroe and Kennedy in two rounds, and floors Griffin multiple times. Johnson takes Munroe the distance, and looses to Griffin. Johnson lost a few times, and had too many un-even performances from 1899-1905 to be viewed as the #1 gun. The Hart fight was Johnson chance to prove he was the #1 contender, and he lost that one.
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Old 05-10-2011, 03:23 AM   #37
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
I am saying they might not have even turned pro.

Yes that is true. But blacks in that time were a little more than just economically afflicted. They were half a generation fresh out of slavery and still persecuted as an inferior people. It is alot more than just being economically afflicted in this case.
Well I think you need to dismiss all white champions up until about 1960 to remain consistent here.

If you genuinely believe racism means a shallower talent pool, maybe even up until about '85.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:27 AM   #38
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Sorry but Fitz towers above these guys in 1899-1904. Sharkey was more accomplished than anyone on that list during that time period. Corbett too, though Corbett was surely past his best for the re-match in 1903. Johnson can be viewed a a top contender from say mid 1903 to the 1905 Hart loss.

Take note, Jeffries smashed Munroe and Kennedy in two rounds, and floors Griffin multiple times. Johnson takes Munroe the distance, and looses to Griffin. Johnson lost a few times, and had too many un-even performances from 1899-1905 to be viewed as the #1 gun. The Hart fight was Johnson chance to prove he was the #1 contender, and he lost that one.
Did you miss the part that said DURING THE TIME SCALE 1901-1905?
During this time.Fitz was retired from Aug 1900 -July 1902.
From 1902 -1905 he had 7 fights,against.
Jeffries for the title,Fitz was 39 years old, and had been retired for 2 years.
Unknown ,no form Steward.
Unknown no form , Ranke? we don't even have his first name.
Coughlin 1-4-0.
Joe Grim 3-4-1
Gardner ,whom Johnson had allready beaten a year earlier ,flooring him twice in the process.
O Brien ,whom he would be stopped by a year later.
Apart from the unknown Ranke, none of these were heavyweights.

Sharkey?
During the time scale Sharkey had 4 fights
Everett lost by dsq
A no contest with Peter Maher when both were chucked out for doing nothing.
Kod by Ruhlin in 11rds
Beaten by Munroe in a 6 rounder
4 fights no wins.
You need to read slower, then you might take in the gist of posts.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:50 AM   #39
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

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Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
I am saying they might not have even turned pro.

Yes that is true. But blacks in that time were a little more than just economically afflicted. They were half a generation fresh out of slavery and still persecuted as an inferior people. It is alot more than just being economically afflicted in this case.
It is possible to overstate the obstacles against black fighters making a career out of boxing. Sure there was the colour bar, but they could still make a lot of money.

Harry Wills for example was the highest earniong boxer up to that point apart from Jack Dempsey. He also seems to have invested his money a lot better than Dempsey.
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Old 05-10-2011, 05:41 AM   #40
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Well I think you need to dismiss all white champions up until about 1960 to remain consistent here.

If you genuinely believe racism means a shallower talent pool, maybe even up until about '85.
It clearly does mean a shallower talent pool, and no i dont need to do that to be consistent, you're twisting things. In Jeffries' time the obstacle was clearly much more massive than it was in say the 1960's.

And i've clearly suggested twice now that the playing field progreesively became more level over the eras
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Old 05-10-2011, 06:16 AM   #41
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
I am saying they might not have even turned pro.

Yes that is true. But blacks in that time were a little more than just economically afflicted. They were half a generation fresh out of slavery and still persecuted as an inferior people. It is alot more than just being economically afflicted in this case.
So, you judge eras, fighters and so on on "might have". Very valid.
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Old 05-10-2011, 06:34 AM   #42
Pachilles
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
It is possible to overstate the obstacles against black fighters making a career out of boxing. Sure there was the colour bar, but they could still make a lot of money.

Harry Wills for example was the highest earniong boxer up to that point apart from Jack Dempsey. He also seems to have invested his money a lot better than Dempsey.
Overstatement??

Heavyweight Champions

Pre 1900

Sullivan
Cobett
Fitzsimmons
Jeffries
1900
Hart
Burns
Jack Johnson - black
1910
Willard
1920
Dempsey
Tunney
1930
Schmeling
Sharkey
Carnera
Baer
Braddock
COLOUR BAR SMASHED! - (que - Guile theme)
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYCT77YNHsk[/ame]
Joe Louis - black
1940
Charles - black
1950
Walcott - black
Marciano
Patterson - black
1960
Johansson
Patterson - black
Liston - black
Ali - black
Terrell - black
1970
Frazier - black
Ellis - black
Foreman - black
Ali - black
LSpinks - black
Norton - black
Holmes - black
1980
Tate - black
Weaver - black
Dokes - black
Coetzee
Witherspoon - black
Thomas - black
Page - black
Tubbs - black
M Spinks - black
Berbick - black
Tyson - black
Tucker - black
1990
Douglas - black
Holyfield - black
Mercer - black
Moorer - black
Bowe - black
Lewis - black
Morrison
Bent - black
Hide - black
mcCall - black
Foreman - black
Seldon - black
Bruno - black
Akinwande - black
2000
V Klitchsko
Byrd - black
Lewis - black
Holyfield - black
W Klitchsko
Ruiz
Rahman - black
Jones Jr - black
Sanders
Brewster - black
Valuev
Maskaev
Briggs - black
Chagaev
Ibragimov
Peter - black
Haye - black

Last edited by Pachilles; 05-10-2011 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:01 AM   #43
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

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Originally Posted by bodhi View Post
So, you judge eras, fighters and so on on "might have". Very valid.
you really are a simple creature
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:16 AM   #44
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

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Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
Bottomline line is that the 220lbs Jeffries competed well against, almost exclusively, middleweights, white middleweights, white north american middleweights.

Calling him a world champion is ridiculous. He was the champion of one race, in one country, of men half his size.

..and Johnson didn't do the same?
His title resume is in fact much weaker then Jeffries's.
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:20 AM   #45
bodhi
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Default Re: Jeffries: "I could never have whipped Jack Johnson at my best" Credible Quote?

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Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
you really are a simple creature
Coming from you this really is a compliment. Thanks.
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