Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


View Poll Results: How would do you grade Dempseys championship reign?
A+ 2 3.39%
A 1 1.69%
A- 2 3.39%
B+ 5 8.47%
B 18 30.51%
B- 5 8.47%
C+ 7 11.86%
C 7 11.86%
C- 7 11.86%
D 5 8.47%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-25-2011, 12:46 PM   #496
JAB5239
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,393
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
You posted a link on this subject by the same guy? Show it to me. And than show me where I "trashed" the guy. Unlike you I don't disregard the opinions of others, I disagree with them. That isn't a double standard, it's called free thinking. You and I have agreed on other subjects, is it a double standard by both of us because we do not agree on this?
You forgot to answer this Quarry. I'd like an answer please.
JAB5239 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 05-25-2011, 01:09 PM   #497
Rock0052
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: All up in Djibouti
Posts: 10,961
vCash: 79
Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

Quote:
Originally Posted by bman100 View Post
That's Benny Leonard right?
Yep.
Rock0052 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 01:26 PM   #498
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,643
vCash: 238
Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

Quote:
Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
P,so what U are saying is that I who saw Ray Robinson in his welterweight prime several times,and still believe 55 years later,that he was better than anyone else until the present day,should not have a better insight of Robinson than fans of today ? All my contemporaries who saw Robinson and raved about him as myself,knew as much or more than today's fight fans, because I for example had access to a pro card in NY EVERY night of the week, except Sunday.
So why not the writers of Jack Dempsey's time who twice polled him as the best fighter of the century ? Why is your opinion as valid or BETTER than
all of the great writers in that poll who saw Dempsey fight ? I read history,
and must have faith with the majority opinions to evaluate a boxers rating.
Otherwise, why the hell read history. And so with the whipping boy of today Jack Dempsey. I'm with you Jack, wherever U are !!!
todays fans.?
Burt, you look like a very sympathetic senior and I respect your opinion.

However, that doesn't mean I will just let it slide when I disagree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Many of the men whose opinions are being almost completely dismissed saw Dempsey far more extensively than that, and saw many of the other greats too, as well as thousands of non-great fighters. I'm talking about managers and trainers and gym owners, and people who made their lives in the boxing game.


Well, that's probably slightly different from hanging out at Stillman's, Gleason's and The Garden and the top NY boxing clubs and fight cards, and almost all the championship training camps, for decades on end during boxing's golden age.
You can make pretty good comparisons between the great fighters when you've seen dozens of them up close, as well as thousands of not-so-great ones.

It's a damn sight better insight than peering over microfilm collections and using boxrec as your primary opinion forming material regarding these fighters.
In my humble opinion.
We'll just disagree on this.

But answer me this. Boxing historians, with all their superior knowledge, having seen the fighters (memory of events 40 years ago is more reliable than watching film, right) - how come they COMPLETELY miss the boat when making their rankings? Who in their right mind ranks a Jack Dempsey as the greater boxer than Joe Louis?

I can only think of three explanations:
A) They are incompetent.
B) Memory may not be that reliable on a time scale of decades, and the lack of instant access to records, newspaper articles and fight film leads to an incomplete or distorted picture, and thus distorted judgment.
C) Generational bias, racism or another form of bias clouds their judgment.

I can only assume it's not option A. Option C is not out of the question, but I'm thinking the root is in option B. What do you honestly think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
Imagine being in a debate on the other side of Klompton in the older days, without Internet Newspaper searches, youtube, Cyberboxingzone or even boxrec. I suppose it would be in person, so that would only leave one chance of settling it in my favour - or more likely, this followed by this
It is actually true. Just look at how many mistakes for instance Fleischer makes in his writings. He'd be destroyed in a debate without access to the sources that we have.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 01:31 PM   #499
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,610
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
You are a piece of cake. If I had proof,would i have asked for ESB help 2 years ago, to solve this mystery.? Why in tarnation would I bring up this fight
not recorded in the record book on ESB if I HADN"T SEEN IT ? Why of all the possible bouts i could have picked would I fib about a Robinson/Dykes bout
to enhance my ego ? Who the heck today would know who Bobby Dykes was, for Pete's sake ? Why 55 or so years later would I post for help on ESB,to help me solve this ommission ? Nope K, U have a right to doubt that this fight took place , but to bring this subject up from nowhere,calling me a liar and
berift of my senses, was a rabbit punch, unfairly thrown....
Wait I thought it was a low blow? Or was it a low blow, rabbit punch combo? I'm confused
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 01:37 PM   #500
quarry
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
You forgot to answer this Quarry. I'd like an answer please.
you know exactly where the link is it is on the other forum unless you have deletted it to cover yourself... you have just within the last 10 minutes posted that you disagree with 10 or more boxing historians who expressed their opinion of where Gene Tunney ranks in history claiming they are all wrong. ... almost every post you make on this forum someone pulls you up on it and corrects you
 Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 01:40 PM   #501
JAB5239
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,393
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quarry View Post
you know exactly where the link is it is on the other forum unless you have deletted it to cover yourself... you have just within the last 10 minutes posted that you disagree with 10 or more boxing historians who expressed their opinion of where Gene Tunney ranks in history claiming they are all wrong. ... almost every post you make on this forum someone pulls you up on it and corrects you
Oh, now its in the other forum. Lol, ok. And my question of double standards, do you care to answer that or are you just going to ignore it?
JAB5239 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 02:21 PM   #502
quarry
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
Oh, now its in the other forum. Lol, ok. And my question of double standards, do you care to answer that or are you just going to ignore it?
i answered and addressed it awhile back
 Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 02:27 PM   #503
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,610
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

Quote:
Originally Posted by quarry View Post
watching a boxing fight on cold-flat screen is a million light years away from sitting at ringside.. .
Yes you typically get a much better view and better angles on the screen
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 02:29 PM   #504
JAB5239
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,393
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quarry View Post
i answered and addressed it awhile back
No, that is another lie. It was only posted 2 pages back (post 479 to be exact) and you chose to ignore it. Anybody can check and see for themselves, it takes about 2 seconds.
JAB5239 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 03:11 PM   #505
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 21,367
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain;9742115[U
]How many times did Mickey Walker see Joe Louis[/u] fight?

How many times did he see Rocky Marciano fight?

Is it possible he was biased towards the HW champion of his era?


The fact that these guys thought him great is interesting, but all these questions are valid.

In the interim, we, whatever the rest of it means, can look at both of these fighters in terms of record and film, in detail, and make our own conclusion. This is the crucial point.
Walker was interviewed in1971 and he still had all his marbles,he didn't die till the 80,s ,so there's a good chance he saw as much of those guys as anyone ,and possibly live from ringside.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 03:26 PM   #506
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,575
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post

We'll just disagree on this.

But answer me this. Boxing historians, with all their superior knowledge, having seen the fighters (memory of events 40 years ago is more reliable than watching film, right) - how come they COMPLETELY miss the boat when making their rankings? Who in their right mind ranks a Jack Dempsey as the greater boxer than Joe Louis?

I can only think of three explanations:
A) They are incompetent.
B) Memory may not be that reliable on a time scale of decades, and the lack of instant access to records, newspaper articles and fight film leads to an incomplete or distorted picture, and thus distorted judgment.
C) Generational bias, racism or another form of bias clouds their judgment.

I can only assume it's not option A. Option C is not out of the question, but I'm thinking the root is in option B. What do you honestly think?
Two things :

Firstly, there's a distinction to be made between ranking based on "accomplishments" and "head-to-head" peak ability (to use the terminology common to this forum.
With his 25 defences in an 11 year reign, Louis is superior in the "accomplishment" ranking.
But they were ranking Louis and Dempsey on who was absolutely better, "head-to-head" at their absolute peak, at the absolute height of their powers, and who would win a hypothetical match between the two ... and Dempsey is a valid choice under such criteria.

Secondly, in 1950, Joe Louis was still active/recently retired. Certainly I would expect some of the polled sportwriters to have been slightly hesistant in assessing his true place at this time because it's difficult to do so with an active fighter, which may account for the weight of the lean towards Dempsey.
It doesn't however invalidate the idea that Dempsey and Louis were of comparable greatness, and close to one another under the criteria of peak greatness .... simply, both worthy candidates as the two greatest fighters of the 1900 - '50 period.
Unforgiven is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 03:32 PM   #507
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,575
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Yes you typically get a much better view and better angles on the screen
Sitting ringside - and often some rows back - is far superior. You can grasp things - feel them even - that just don't come through on TV.
Unforgiven is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 03:45 PM   #508
burt bienstock
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7,766
vCash: 500
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Wait I thought it was a low blow? Or was it a low blow, rabbit punch combo? I'm confused
PP,don't be confused. I was hit with a low blow and also was hit with a bunch of carrots, hence the "rabbit punch ".
burt bienstock is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 03:56 PM   #509
quarry
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAB5239 View Post
No, that is another lie. It was only posted 2 pages back (post 479 to be exact) and you chose to ignore it. Anybody can check and see for themselves, it takes about 2 seconds.
what the f@ck is your looking for me to answer you clown.. your stalking me around the site making accusations i need to respond to your posts. yet your posts are stupid and make for nothing but laughter and are nothing but buffoonary now run along boy and watch your Tommy Morrison dvd set
 Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2011, 04:00 PM   #510
quarry
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: How good was Dempseys totle reign?Lets look at who he fought. Willard-In many pe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Sitting ringside - and often some rows back - is far superior. You can grasp things - feel them even - that just don't come through on TV.
yes you are correct, sitting watching Live`is far superior than watching on TV..getting back to the Lewis v McCall (1) fight i watched live` McCall hit Lewis with a body-shot just before the bell to end the opening round which knocked the stuffing out of Lewis who sat in his corner grimacing in pain yet it was not picked up on cold-flat-screen.
 Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013