boxing
Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


View Poll Results: How would do you grade Dempseys championship reign?
A+ 2 3.39%
A 1 1.69%
A- 2 3.39%
B+ 5 8.47%
B 18 30.51%
B- 5 8.47%
C+ 7 11.86%
C 7 11.86%
C- 7 11.86%
D 5 8.47%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-02-2011, 10:43 AM   #616
SonnyListonsJab
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 560
vCash: 500
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose View Post
Sonny, check out this website - this may actually teach you something more than that one little snippet you read in a magazine when you were 12 about the Bright's thing

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

that goes for anyone else views Miske as a meaningless footnote aswell
Already been there thanx

Billy Miske was not in his prime when Jack Dempsey knocked him out in 1920
SonnyListonsJab is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 06-02-2011, 10:45 AM   #617
SonnyListonsJab
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 560
vCash: 500
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
OK guys, I defer to you all. Dempsey was a stiff, Billy Miske was somehoiw beating 20 out of his last 22 opponents, Billys opponents were all terminal cases. Whatever great things
I have read about and HEARD about Jack Dempsey , was as Shakespeare wrote,"a tale spoken by an idiot",and I most now purge myself from the notion that Jack Dempsey
was ever worthy of my admiration ! And oh yes, all the great writers and boxing experts who I had read,who spoke so highly of him, were somehow less knowledgeable than
today's gurus, eighty years later...Sam Langford, Mickey Walker, Max Schmeling, Damon Runyon, Nat Fleischer, Ray Arcel, Jack Sharkey, Gene Tunney, Lou Stillman, Grantland Rice,
Max Schmeling, SHAME on you for deceiving me,lo these many years....I will now repent!!
Burt,

You just keep pretending Bright's Disease was not effecting Miske. The man's kidney's were failing him for crying out loud. No way was he anywhere near his best. Going into the Dempsey fight he was 2-2-3 in his last 7 fights including losses to Levinskey and Norfolk.
SonnyListonsJab is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 01:56 PM   #618
burt bienstock
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,000
vCash: 500
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyListonsJab View Post
Burt,

You just keep pretending Bright's Disease was not effecting Miske. The man's kidney's were failing him for crying out loud. No way was he anywhere near his best. Going into the Dempsey fight he was 2-2-3 in his last 7 fights including losses to Levinskey and Norfolk.
Sonny, Yes Miske had Brights Disease since 1918 when he was diagnosed. Yes he was suffering this disease, but he was in a form of remission when he fought Dempsey in 1920. Dempsey was at his peak at 25 years of age, while Miske was 26 years old. I have read of Miske's bravery fighting that kidney disease, and though he was not cured in 1920 ,Miske was hardly a
"walking dead man" fighting Dempsey and the following opponents thereafter.
If you had said Billy Miske, was not at his best in the Dempsey fight, I would not dispute that claim, but Miske by all accounts from 1918 to 1923, was a very good fighter..
I f ever a movie should be made about a fighter, the subject should be brave Billy Miske, and his sole desire to provide for his family,after his looming death...What a brave soul was Miske, and a darn good fighter...
burt bienstock is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 02:32 PM   #619
klompton
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,834
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

I dont find anything terribly impressive about Miske from the time he had Brights on.

The problem is that people who are fans of Miske or try to build his reputation up play both sides of the fence. To put his post Dempsey career into perspective his biggest wins came against guys who were FORMER contenders (not the best in the division, merely also rans) who were by this point well past their prime. Thats impressive in the context (that it was a dying man) IF all of those fights were fought on the up and up, which I dont believe some of them were. However, if you want to argue, like some do, that Miske was still a very good fighter, then a very good fighter gets little or no credit from cleaning up on also rans that were past their prime, never cracked the top, and in some cases probably threw those fights. You cant have it both ways (He was great, dying, and still beating the best). Its simply not true and this distortion over time is what, IMO, has led to Miske being lionized and inducted into the HOF. Its a tragic story, a good story, and worthy of retelling, but when kept in its proper perspective its not nearly as impressive as some people make it out to be.
klompton is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 03:11 PM   #620
burt bienstock
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,000
vCash: 500
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by klompton View Post
I dont find anything terribly impressive about Miske from the time he had Brights on.

The problem is that people who are fans of Miske or try to build his reputation up play both sides of the fence. To put his post Dempsey career into perspective his biggest wins came against guys who were FORMER contenders (not the best in the division, merely also rans) who were by this point well past their prime. Thats impressive in the context (that it was a dying man) IF all of those fights were fought on the up and up, which I dont believe some of them were. However, if you want to argue, like some do, that Miske was still a very good fighter, then a very good fighter gets little or no credit from cleaning up on also rans that were past their prime, never cracked the top, and in some cases probably threw those fights. You cant have it both ways (He was great, dying, and still beating the best). Its simply not true and this distortion over time is what, IMO, has led to Miske being lionized and inducted into the HOF. Its a tragic story, a good story, and worthy of retelling, but when kept in its proper perspective its not nearly as impressive as some people make it out to be.
K, I was merely reacting to a poster declaring that Billy Miske was a "dead man walking". Nothing more, nothing less. Regardless of his Dempsey fight and the 22 or so following bouts , he was no JOE GRIM at all. Miske was
still a cabable fighter til the end of his career...Just before his death he called a boxing buddy on the phone saying "take me to the hospital I am dying ",
which Miske passed away in Jan, 1924.
burt bienstock is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 03:18 PM   #621
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Burt Bienstock. I know you're a huge fan of the fight game. What boxers have impressed you over the last 25 years and who are your fav fighters of all-time?
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 03:44 PM   #622
burt bienstock
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,000
vCash: 500
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi View Post
Burt Bienstock. I know you're a huge fan of the fight game. What boxers have impressed you over the last 25 years and who are your fav fighters of all-time?
Robbi,impossible to answer,as there were so many fighters that I saw ringside. Of the fighters that I have seen and ADMIRED there was No1 Ray Robinson, Joe Louis,Willie Pep, Ike Williams, Ezzard Charles, Kid Gavilan,
Jake LaMotta, Marcel Cerdan, and my two most thrilling action fighters, Beau Jack and the young Rocky Graziano. Of recent vintage I loved Joe Frazier, Alexis Arguello, Mathew Saad [what a warrior],Rocky Marciano, Carmen Basilio, Tony De Marco, and the whole crop of Mexican featherweights of recent years, and oh yes Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran...
My alltime favorites are Harry Greb, Jack Dempsey, Sam Langford, Stanley Ketchel,Mickey Walker, Benny Leonard, Henry Armstrong, Ray Robinson[of course], Ezzard Charles, and the fighter who I respect so much JOE LOUIS.
And of course Billy Conn, and the UNDERATED Freddie Steele,almost unbeatable at his best... Take care R...
burt bienstock is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 03:46 PM   #623
SonnyListonsJab
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 560
vCash: 500
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Burt,


What did you think of Cuban Heavyweight Nino Valdes, and his chances against Rocky Marciano around 1954-55? Did anyone around during the time give Valdes a realistic chance to win?
SonnyListonsJab is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 03:57 PM   #624
burt bienstock
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 8,000
vCash: 500
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyListonsJab View Post
Burt,


What did you think of Cuban Heavyweight Nino Valdes, and his chances against Rocky Marciano around 1954-55? Did anyone around during the time give Valdes a realistic chance to win?
S, I saw nino Valdez lose to Harold Johnson in 1952 at Eastern Pkwy Arena.
Valdez weighed about 35 pounds more than Johnson. I don't think anyone gave big Nino much of a chance against Rocky Marciano when Rocky was at his best.
burt bienstock is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 04:00 PM   #625
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 13,265
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by klompton View Post
I dont find anything terribly impressive about Miske from the time he had Brights on.

The problem is that people who are fans of Miske or try to build his reputation up play both sides of the fence. To put his post Dempsey career into perspective his biggest wins came against guys who were FORMER contenders (not the best in the division, merely also rans) who were by this point well past their prime. Thats impressive in the context (that it was a dying man) IF all of those fights were fought on the up and up, which I dont believe some of them were. However, if you want to argue, like some do, that Miske was still a very good fighter, then a very good fighter gets little or no credit from cleaning up on also rans that were past their prime, never cracked the top, and in some cases probably threw those fights. You cant have it both ways (He was great, dying, and still beating the best). Its simply not true and this distortion over time is what, IMO, has led to Miske being lionized and inducted into the HOF. Its a tragic story, a good story, and worthy of retelling, but when kept in its proper perspective its not nearly as impressive as some people make it out to be.
That's probably true.
Likewise, I think Harry Wills' collection of wins during Dempsey's reign gets ridiculously overrated too.
Mostly a collection of set-ups and has-beens and nobodies and ****py mismatches and Dempsey's leftovers.

I know, I know ..... Obviously, that's all Dempsey's fault.
Unforgiven is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 04:03 PM   #626
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 38,060
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

What were the set-ups, do you think?
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 04:06 PM   #627
Cmoyle
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 607
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

"The problem is that people who are fans of Miske or try to build his reputation up play both sides of the fence. To put his post Dempsey career into perspective his biggest wins came against guys who were FORMER contenders (not the best in the division, merely also rans) who were by this point well past their prime. Thats impressive in the context (that it was a dying man) IF all of those fights were fought on the up and up, which I dont believe some of them were. However, if you want to argue, like some do, that Miske was still a very good fighter, then a very good fighter gets little or no credit from cleaning up on also rans that were past their prime, never cracked the top, and in some cases probably threw those fights."

I'm not sure I understand the above correctly, but if you're saying that you believe some of Miske's opponents threw their fights against him you've got me curious as to which fights you might suspect those to be.
Cmoyle is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 04:11 PM   #628
SonnyListonsJab
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 560
vCash: 500
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
That's probably true.
Likewise, I think Harry Wills' collection of wins during Dempsey's reign gets ridiculously overrated too.
Mostly a collection of set-ups and has-beens and nobodies and ****py mismatches and Dempsey's leftovers.

I know, I know ..... Obviously, that's all Dempsey's fault.

Dempsey did not fight Harry Wills and Harry Greb. Bottom line. Had Dempsey just defended against those two, it title reign would look better than it does today. Quality over Quantity any day. Dempsey seemed to enjoy fighting LOSERS of title eliminators, never heard that one before.
SonnyListonsJab is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 04:12 PM   #629
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 38,060
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonnyListonsJab View Post
Dempsey did not fight Harry Wills and Harry Greb. Bottom line. Had Dempsey just defended against those two, it title reign would look better than it does today.
Actually, his title reign would have looked superb.

A lot of the Wills patter would remain the same though, with people trying to prove Wills worth for different reasons.

Assuming for a moment that Dempsey would win.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2011, 04:18 PM   #630
Dempsey1238
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,015
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Actually, his title reign would have looked superb.

A lot of the Wills patter would remain the same though, with people trying to prove Wills worth for different reasons.

Assuming for a moment that Dempsey would win.
Not sure on that, if Dempsey defended and BEAT Wills. I think Dempsey would have answer his critcs. No color bar, face his number 1. And came close in cleaning his era.

Wills is a big mark on Dempsey, and had Jack face him, win or lose, We would not be having this talk today.
Dempsey1238 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump






All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2015