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View Poll Results: How would do you grade Dempseys championship reign?
A+ 2 3.39%
A 1 1.69%
A- 2 3.39%
B+ 5 8.47%
B 18 30.51%
B- 5 8.47%
C+ 7 11.86%
C 7 11.86%
C- 7 11.86%
D 5 8.47%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-02-2011, 03:22 PM   #631
Unforgiven
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Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
What were the set-ups, do you think?
Buddy Jackson, Ray Bennett, Tut Jackson, an aging Jeff Clark for the zillionth time, an ancient Denver Ed Martin, Floyd Johnson etc.
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:22 PM   #632
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Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

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Buddy Jackson, Ray Bennett, Tut Jackson, an aging Jeff Clark for the zillionth time, an ancient Denver Ed Martin, Floyd Johnson etc.


How much actual evidence do you have?
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:27 PM   #633
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Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

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How much actual evidence do you have?
Evidence of what ?
They were stinkers, met with plenty of disapproval in the press and by the boxing commissions.
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:29 PM   #634
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Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

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Evidence of what ?
evidence of their being "set-ups."
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:34 PM   #635
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Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

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evidence of their being "set-ups."
They were set-ups.
ie. gross mismatches.
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:34 PM   #636
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Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Prior to the Fulton-Wills Match, Jack Dempsey said he would meet the winner. A day after Wills destroyed Fulton in 3, Dempsey signed to fight his dying friend, Billy Miske.
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Old 06-02-2011, 05:12 PM   #637
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Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

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"The problem is that people who are fans of Miske or try to build his reputation up play both sides of the fence. To put his post Dempsey career into perspective his biggest wins came against guys who were FORMER contenders (not the best in the division, merely also rans) who were by this point well past their prime. Thats impressive in the context (that it was a dying man) IF all of those fights were fought on the up and up, which I dont believe some of them were. However, if you want to argue, like some do, that Miske was still a very good fighter, then a very good fighter gets little or no credit from cleaning up on also rans that were past their prime, never cracked the top, and in some cases probably threw those fights."

I'm not sure I understand the above correctly, but if you're saying that you believe some of Miske's opponents threw their fights against him you've got me curious as to which fights you might suspect those to be.
Cmoyle,as you just entered the fray, and i have great respect for your past posts,i would just explain to you how this lively debate started :
A poster implied a short time ago that Billy Miske when Jack Dempsey kod Billy in 3 rounds in 1920, was a "walking dead man", [his words],even though as I have read over the years,Miske beat 20 out of his last 22 opponents, hardly the record of a "walking dead man" IMO. Some of his opponnts were Bill Brennan ,Fred Fulton, Jack Renault, Charley Weinert, Willie Meehan etc. and about 16 other fighters. This happened in about 1920-3.
I read over the years that his Bright Disease was in some kind of remission
during that time period. My defense was just to cite the poster that Miske at this 3 year juncture was still a capable fighter, when Dempsey in 1920
[ Dempsey's prime] kod Miske. I just thought that Miske was more than a
"walking dead man " at this time.Were all Miske's wins during this streak "on the level".? Who knows today, but by diminishing Miske's victories, it than
diminishes Jack Dempsey,who is there true target I believe. Yep, Miske was sick, but for that 3 year period, he was still better than a "walking dead man".
Thanks C...
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Old 06-02-2011, 05:22 PM   #638
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Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Thanks Burt, I agree that Miske was in a period of remission as far as his illness was concerned when he fought Dempsey for the title and still a capable fighter. Just not good enough for the likes of Dempsey at that point in time. I'm interested to learn what Miske fights Steve thinks may not have been on the level though.
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:56 PM   #639
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Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

I defonately don't think either renault or brennan gave their best. Both fighters had their purses withheld in those fights. The renault fight is interesting in that the reason given for the purse being held does not jive at all with the descriptions of the fight. Obviously something happened to cause the officials to sanction the fighters but it certainly wasn't due to the official version of events. The local commission was never eager to have light shed on possible skulldaggery (they had for years and would continue to for years sweep such instances under the rug) it isn't a stretch to suggest the fight wasn't on its merits. Brennan as well gave an uncharacteristically poor performance (for a number of reasons) and was banned with his purse withheld. Now one could argue that he had no business fighting after what happened to him against firpo but even taking that into account it was curious. Beyond that, even if you believe miske was winning these fights legitimately they must be kept in perspective that all of the 'big name ' scalps he took post dempsey were either past it or never really had it. I mean guys like fulton, brennan, meehan etc were well past their best but ultimately, even at their best had failed to truly live up to expectations. So you. Are left with several wins over recognizeable names who themselves were never great and were now in their twilight. Like I said, if they were legit that's great for a dead man but hardly makes you anything special for a healthy man. Was he dying or in remussion I think. That's debateable. He was certainly still ill when training for dempsey. This was mentioned by press men in his camp and his 'sickly grey' skin color was also noted as was his decidedly poor showing in the actual fight against a guy who hant fought in mire than a year. For two yrs prior to that miske had done little to nothing to distinguish himself as being deserving of the first crack at dempsey. He remains dempseys worst challenger.
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Old 06-02-2011, 07:50 PM   #640
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Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Robbi,impossible to answer,as there were so many fighters that I saw ringside. Of the fighters that I have seen and ADMIRED there was No1 Ray Robinson, Joe Louis,Willie Pep, Ike Williams, Ezzard Charles, Kid Gavilan,
Jake LaMotta, Marcel Cerdan, and my two most thrilling action fighters, Beau Jack and the young Rocky Graziano. Of recent vintage I loved Joe Frazier, Alexis Arguello, Mathew Saad [what a warrior],Rocky Marciano, Carmen Basilio, Tony De Marco, and the whole crop of Mexican featherweights of recent years, and oh yes Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran...
My alltime favorites are Harry Greb, Jack Dempsey, Sam Langford, Stanley Ketchel,Mickey Walker, Benny Leonard, Henry Armstrong, Ray Robinson[of course], Ezzard Charles, and the fighter who I respect so much JOE LOUIS.
And of course Billy Conn, and the UNDERATED Freddie Steele,almost unbeatable at his best... Take care R...
Bert. What about fighters over the last 25 years? You're surely impressed by the likes of Whitaker, who was one of the greatest ring artists in history.

I will try and get you an article on an old timer who watched the likes of Louis, Robinson, etc, and he watched Hopkins in the gym and was drooling at his workouts. It was around the time Hopkins fought Wright and Pavlik. He said Hopkins is technically the best fighter he's seen since the war. Just so sound with the fundementals.

I posted the article on here a while back. I'll see if I can find it.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:03 PM   #641
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Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

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Originally Posted by Robbi View Post
Bert. What about fighters over the last 25 years? You're surely impressed by the likes of Whitaker, who was one of the greatest ring artists in history.

I will try and get you an article on an old timer who watched the likes of Louis, Robinson, etc, and he watched Hopkins in the gym and was drooling at his workouts. It was around the time Hopkins fought Wright and Pavlik. He said Hopkins is technically the best fighter he's seen since the war. Just so sound with the fundementals.

I posted the article on here a while back. I'll see if I can find it.
Thank you Robbi. I read the article as you suggested and it is nice to find contemporaries of mine like Familton still kicking. I returned a message to you privately.Thanks R
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:30 PM   #642
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Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

I am so drunk right now. Ali rules! Louis was unbeatable! Marciano was a tank! Foreman was a Beast! Don't **** with Sonny Liston! Tyson was a machine! Larry Holmes was so goood! Jersey Joe Walcott is godly like! Ezzard Charles was so slick! Patterson was blazzzzzing! Dempsey was swift! Jack Johnson loved to toy on white guys HAHAHAA! Evander was a warrior! Bowe liked McDonalds! Lennox was a true champ! Joe Frazier was old school!!!! The Mongoose was a legend
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:40 PM   #643
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Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

My only interest was pertaining to the comment about fixed Miske fights, nothing else. Here's some dope on the Brennan - Miske fight:

"Billy hurt Brennan with right and left punches to the jaw early in the second round, and then chose to coast the rest of the way, clinching often, and using his shoulder to push Brennan away. He won this round as well. After the round, the referee, Leo Shea, went to Brennan’s corner and warned him to put forth more effort.
The referee’s warning seemed to have the desired effect on Brennan, as he became the aggressor in the beginning of the third round, landing a number of blows to Billy’s head. Billy covered up and clinched. When they were separated, Billy hurt Brennan with a hard left to the mouth. He rushed in and landed a series of lighter punches and Brennan fell to the canvas, rolling just outside the ropes. He rolled back inside the ring, and was attempting to rise as the referee’s count reached five, when the bell rang to end the round, saving him from a possible knockout.
Brennan’s seconds rushed into the ring and lifted him to his feet. He started after Miske, apparently unaware the round had ended, but his aides grabbed him and directed him toward his corner. As he turned he saw the referee, Shea, and shouted at him: “You hit me! What did you hold my hand for?
Shea walked toward Brennan’s corner and replied, “You’re crazy, sap, I wasn’t near you at all!”
When the bell rang to start the fourth round, Brennan appeared groggy as he left his corner to meet Billy. When the two men came together, Billy threw a big right that landed on Brennan’s jaw and he dropped like a rock. As Shea counted off the seconds, Brennan tried to rise, but he floundered about the floor, unable to regain the use of his legs.
At the count of ten, Billy, the referee, and others helped Brennan to his stool. Tommy Gibbons, who was in Omaha for a week’s engagement at the World Theater, and who arrived midway through the fight, stepped into the ring and congratulated Billy on his victory. Then he hurried over to Brennan’s corner.
“Can I help you any, Bill?” Tommy asked Brennan.
Brennan was still dazed and unable to answer at first. But then he opened his eyes and saw Tommy. “Tom, did you see that referee hold my arm? He held me and Miske socked me right on the button. I wasn’t right after that!”
Gibbons helped apply cold cloths to Brennan’s head and then helped him out of the ring.
After the fight, Tommy told reporters he had been late in arriving, and had only witnessed the last half of the third round, and what little there was of the fourth and final round.
“There was no fake about the knockout,” said Tommy. “Brennan was hurt. What went on before I got there, of course, I cannot comment on. But Brennan was really hurt when I saw him. I’ve fought Miske five times and I’ve always had a lot of respect for his punching ability. Billy can sock!”

Most of this came from following source: Omaha World-Herald. 5,000 Fans Razz Terrible Fiasco, November 8, 1923.

Brennan obviously performed very poorly, but I don't believe it was a fix.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:54 PM   #644
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Default Re: How good was Dempsey's title reign?

Clay, is it true you have written a book on Miske ?
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:53 PM   #645
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Yes, it's been finished for quite a while now. Still trying to find a publisher for it.
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