How good was Dempsey's title reign?

[PetethePrince]

Oh my God. Dempsey HW title "ducked Willis-Greb" threads need to be banned for at least a month. Hell, even Rocky Marciano threads need to be banned for a month. Two of the most over-discussed fighters on this board. Leaves you with the feeling you have to attack or defend either one of them for doing something right or wrong.

[bodhi]

Originally Posted by PetethePrince

Oh my God. Dempsey HW title "ducked Willis-Greb" threads need to be banned for at least a month. Hell, even Rocky Marciano threads need to be banned for a month. Two of the most over-discussed fighters on this board. Leaves you with the feeling you have to attack or defend either one of them for doing something right or wrong.

Yeah, we could go and discuss Tyson or Lewis instead.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by McGrain

I don't agree with a great deal of this; nor do I care to argue it, really.

My point was that Greb's being "to small" to fight Dempsey because it's a "no win" situation is pretty much negated by the fact that he matched Carpentier, who weighed in at 168 for his loss to Jeanette, and 170 for his DQ win over Smith.

If Greb is too small, Carpentier is too small.

If Carpentier is big enough to fight, so is Greb.

Can't have it both ways.

Very well, and fair enough.

Carp, the shortest of Jack's title opponents, was at least 5'11-1/2" tall, so he had over three inches of height Greb lacked. You've seen the photograph of Carp standing with Tunney, Dempsey and Frazier at Jack's 75th birthday bash, and while he's obviously considerably slighter than they, nor do they tower over him like Dempsey and Tunney did over Greb. It wasn't necessary for him to have his height artificially boosted to sell his title shot, as the height of Ketchel was for Johnson, and Walker's was for Sharkey at their weigh-ins. Being 5'8" never hindered Harry, but I'd have liked to seen him take on the likes of a Fulton, Willard or Wills prior to July 1921. Carp lost a hotly disputed decision over the championship distance to Jeannette in March 1914, his last defeat prior to Dempsey. He was also the only one besides Dempsey himself who had knocked out Levinski (yeah, yeah, I know, many believe it was rigged, but the fact remains that only these two got that result on their resumes by this time).

He destroyed Bombardier Wells twice, an opponent who stood 6'3" with a 79 inch reach. Within the context of 1921, this proved he could knockout an opponent with a modern super heavyweight's height and reach, and he did it twice just after Greb began his career. (Harry didn't take the 6'3" former AAU champion Martin Burke to the woodshed until 1924.) Off-hand, I can't spot anybody with the dimensions of Wells on Greb's record prior to Carp's shot at Dempsey. (Yes, I realize it's only Wells, who was also trashed twice by 5'9" two time Carp starch victim Beckett, but Beckett weighed at least ten pounds more than Greb's highest career weight.) If Harry wasn't derided as "too small" in general (and he was actually huge boned for a middleweight, with much larger hands than Walker), he would have been derided as a midget. (Never mind that Jack hated taking on shorter opponents, and shadow boxed in a four foot high cage. The deadly Langford was only 5'6-1/2" but the ridiculous contrast between himself and Fulton evoked much audience laughter, and the height and reach disparity did raise issues for Sam.)

Again, let me make myself clear. I do consider Greb the P4P GOAT, agree that he would have been a suitable challenger for Dempsey, and I've made the case more than once that his actual record against Tunney might be 3-2, with wins in fights one, two and four. The issue here with respect to highly distinguished poster McGrain is whether or not Greb should have gotten a shot before Carp, who I think would have been an appropriate challenger to Willard even before Greb's rise to MW contention, as Wills should have been for Jess.

Incidentally, what may have been the peak performance of Harry's 1919 campaign, and possibly his entire career, was when he defeated Brennan over the championship distance in Tulsa the very day Dempsey peaked in Toledo. Does Greb dethrone Jess if their positions are reversed, and who wins if Jack and Harry were to square off the same day? (And late 1919 would clearly have been the best time for this defense to occur in reality, before Carp had resumed the post war activity he needed to be able to challenge Levinski and Dempsey.)

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

I've said it before, and you might scoff at it, but Greb's style of fighting, his lack of the KO punch and his size, was NOT generally considered heavyweight championship fighting.

Which huge knockouts do you think particularly impressed the public and matchmakers concerning the challenges of Jack Munroe, Georges Carpantier, John Finnegan, Jack O'Brien and Gene Tunney?

I scoff, because the idea has little merit.

Even if Klompton hadn't just posted about the huge amounts of money available for a Greb world title fight, more than Dempsey had ever made, I would still scoff. As is, it seems even more ridiculous.

Tunney was a hard sell for a while during his build-up years because there was a feeling he couldn't punch, but he was grown as big as Dempsey and had knocked out some heavyweights, plus he was the US marine going up against the old draft-dodger again. .... and with Dempsey coming off a 3-year layoff he was ideal. Still, I don't think he proved a huge draw when he elected to fight Tom Heeney, probably because the press painted him as some sort of intellectual.

These are just details that allow a good promotion. Plenty of details surround Greb that would have allowed for a good promotion. Please don't pretend that Rickard couldn't promote Greb-Dempsey, it very obviously would have been huge.

[PetethePrince]

Originally Posted by bodhi

Yeah, we could go and discuss Tyson or Lewis instead.

Are you implying they're over-discussed, because I don't think it's at the same level. How about heavyweight threads in general. I know it's hard to resist the urge since everyone is an expert on Heavyweights, but 75% of the body is talking about Heavyweights.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

The issue here with respect to highly distinguished poster McGrain is whether or not Greb should have gotten a shot before Carp, who I think would have been an appropriate challenger to Willard even before Greb's rise to MW contention, as Wills should have been for Jess.

Thanks for the kind words.

I don't say that Carpantier shouldn't have got his shot; I don't even say that Greb should have got the title shot before Carp...i'm saying that Carpantier being matched with Demspey precludes dismissal (not by you) of Greb's being matched with him on the basis of size...they are both comfortable at about the same poundage at HW.

Just so that's clear.

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Anyone who is so inclined, can take this to the bank.

I will take this Klompton piece to the bank. But it doesn't detract from my opinion of Dempsey's greatness, nor the fact that I have read that Greb himself was quoted as saying to reporters "after 5 rounds or so Jack would kill me". Furthermore there is no more ardent advocate of Harry Greb, than I am, but I feel that a prime Dempsey would catch up to the much smaller Greb
and put him away. I know I would be a rooting and atooting for Harry Greb,
but Dempsey,power and speed would carry the day. Cheers MC...

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by bodhi

Yeah, we could go and discuss Tyson or Lewis instead.

Any idea that this thread is redundant is moot given Klompton's post concerning the finances of the possible match up between the two the first time it was seriously suggested as a title fight.

That there is gold, and should be what this forum is all about.

Five pages of fruitless argument is a price well worth paying

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

I will take this Klompton piece to the bank. But it doesn't detract from my opinion of Dempsey's greatness, nor the fact that I have read that Greb himself was quoted as saying to reporters "after 5 rounds or so Jack would kill me". Furthermore there is no more ardent advocate of Harry Greb, than I am, but I feel that a prime Dempsey would catch up to the much smaller Greb
and put him away. I know I would be a rooting and atooting for Harry Greb,
but Dempsey,power and speed would carry the day. Cheers MC...

Well there is definitely nothing wrong with picking Dempsey to beat Greb, put it that way!

[klompton]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

Carp had been the European HW Champion since June 1913, ONE MONTH AFTER HARRY STARTED HIS PROFESSIONAL CAREER! He took the EBU LHW honors in February 1913, and the European MW Title in February 1912, ALMOST A YEAR BEFORE GREB BEGAN HIS PROFESSIONAL CAREER! (Prior to that, the Orchid Man was EBU WW Champ in 1911.) While Harry was building up his legend through the advantage of living in a neutral country, Carp was inactive due to valorous wartime service.

Did Greb deserve shots ahead of Miske and Brennan? Probably, but Jack had apparently made pacts with KO Bill and the Thunderbolt that whichever of them got to the title first would afford the other a shot at it. There's no way Harry deserved a shot ahead of Carp though, who had waited the better part of two decades and survived the deadliest war in human history to get to this point. On top of that, the fact remains that they did combine to produce that inaugural million dollar gate, a live audience of 80,183, and more listening on radio.

Harry had 130 fights during Carp's wartime hiatus, but I have too many war veterans in my family (including a few who were gassed in Europe during WW I) to even contemplate suggesting that Harry should have gotten a title shot ahead of Carp. I just can't. Take away WW I, and Carp could well get a heavyweight shot before Greb's 1917 rise to MW contention. (That's assuming Willard could have been any kind of fighting champion.)

Yes, I agree with those who believe Harry was the P4P GOAT, and posted opinions saying so well before Stonehands published his series finale "The God of War." But Carp had waited too long already, in an era where the LHW Champion was frequently viewed as a top HW contender. He had held the EBU HW Title for eight years and defended it twice after the war ended. Harry was never a regional champion at the HW level. Taken within the context of 1921, Carp had established a HW pedigree which made him an acceptable challenger for Dempsey in public opinion.

horseshit. we dont award title shots based on having waited a long time. carpentier had faced nobody of note since winning a controversial dq over gunboat smith in 1914(!!) when he fought Levinsky who Greb had owned over the previous 3 years and 6 fights. In addition to that the Levinsky fight was likely fixed by Rickard for the express purpose of promoting the Dempsey contest and getting Carpentier a title to legitimize his shot. That same fall when Carpentier was touring the states on his vaudville tour he was introduced to Greb who challenged him on the spot in front of a packed audience and Carpentier had nothing to say. A year later when Carpentier was training for Dempsey Greb drove to his camp and offered to spar with Carpentier. Carpentier refused. A year later when Greb was considered by basically everyone as the best MW and LHW and an outstanding challenger for the HW title Rickard offered Carpentier a massive purse to come fight Greb in the United States at Boyles thirty acres. Carpentier declined saying he was obligated to two other fights (for far less money and far inferior competition). Those fights never materialized and instead Carpentier lost his title to Siki for less than 1/10 what he was offered to face Greb for in a fight that is largely believed to have been attempted to be fixed in Carpentier's favor not once but twice. The fact is that Dempsey had some pretty weak or undeserving challengers and Carpentier fits right into that mold. He certainly didnt want to have anything even remotely to do with Greb who would have spanked his ass like a baby. You can build up things like the Firpo fight, Carpentier fight, Willard fight, and Long count but the fact is that for every Willard and Firpo there was a near debacle like Brennan, Gibbons, and Miske and its a bit odd and pathetic that the those exciting fights Dempsey had came against his most overmatched opponents: Willard had been out of the ring for 3 years and his training camp for the fight was a joke. It was no secret that he was training half heartedly and when your best sparring partner is 155 pound journeyman Joe Chip (who was removed from actively sparring with Willard because he was making him look bad) its not a good sign. Then over a year later comes Miske who Dempsey even admits was a charity case. The newspapermen present after the fight stated Greb would have been by far a better challenger. This is not hyperbole I have the articles to prove it written the next day, not 50 years later by Dan Daniel with no sources quoted. Then comes Brennan (who Greb had also owned over the past year and a half over 4 fights). Brennan was ahead when he was stopped, had rocked Dempsey early and had nearly torn his ear off with a punch in the previous round. That was not one of Dempsey's finer moments as was noted by those in attendance. Then comes Carpentier, very exciting but if the ultra rough all time great Greb is too small for Dempsey then what do you call a fragile frenchman who had been manhandled by the best fighters he had faced? Even at that he managed to rock Dempsey to his heels in the second. Then two years off and Dempsey comes back against Gibbons who, as stated before had conclusively proven that he was NOT Dempsey's best challenger. That fight was considered dull, dismal, and was horribly attended, yet this LHW took Dempsey the distance and led over the first third of the fight. Suddenly Dempsey goes back into retirement and when he comes out he needs something exciting. Good thing Dempsey's buddy Tex Rickard had imported Luis Firpo from Argentina where Rickard had several business concerns. Firpo was brought up here because he was big, strong, exotic, and very crude. He was promoted specifically as a foreign savage, a giant that Dempsey was supposed to slay. It was ****ing storybook ballyhoo (to use a term borrowed from the era). Rickard would try it again in the near future with Chilean Quintin Romero Rojas but Rojas couldnt even make it through the stumblebums Rickard set up for him. You can bet your bottom dollar had Rojas beat a few fringe contenders he would have been the next Firpo for Dempsey to slaughter. Keep in mind that Greb was one of the first people to meet Firpo upon his arrival in the states for his 1923 stint and publicly called Firpo out. Jimmy DeForrest knew better. He wouldnt let Firpo anywhere near Greb. Firpo had enough trouble with an old fat jack Johnson in sparring, no way was he going anywhere near someone with speed on the verge of his lottery ticket match with Dempsey. That fight went exactly according to script. For a round Dempsey went life and death with one of the most crude sluggers in the history of the sport and the knocked him out. Then he retired for three years and rather than face his LONG top challenger upon his return what does he do? He and Rickard willingly accept a ban in New York (where Rickard is based) rather than fight Wills in order to face Gene Tunney (who they considered the safe bet). Dempsey is dominated over ten rounds. Loses nearly every round to Sharkey only to win by fouling him and the comes the Long Count which you seem to think was a highlite of Dempsey's career. I interpret this fight different than you apparently. I see a fight where Dempsey loses every round but the seventh. Tunney is in complet control in the seventh, gets knocked down, and Dempsey blows any chance he has by refusing to go to a neutral corner, a rule he was well aware of for this fight despite what some might say. Tunney gets up, gets on his bicycle, and by the end of the round is not only in control but is taking the fight to Dempsey. By the end of the fight Dempsey is getting battered and has nothing to offer. Not exactly one of his finer moments. But you can spin it any way you want.

[Unforgiven]

Originally Posted by klompton

Sorry Burt and Quarry but you guys are both wrong in regards to Dempsey-Greb. There was a demand for the fight. So much so that Dempsey, early in his reign was offered $50,000 plus 50% of the gate reciepts for a ND match of either 8 or 10 rounds and flat refused it. Now this is a ND match against a 160 pound fighter who couldnt punch. His title was as safe as it could be and on paper, according to Dempsey nuthuggers an 8 or 10 round ND match against a guy who could make 158 and couldnt punch is a pretty damn safe and easy $50,000 but Jack turned it down. Thats point 1. Point 2. is if there was no demand why was the minimum purse offered for Dempsey's services against Greb $50,000 with 50% of the gate? Thats more than Dempsey had made for any other fight up to that point. Obviously the promoters felt there was demand. Otherwise they wouldnt sink that kind of money into one fighter (much less expenses and Greb's purse) if they didnt think there was demand. I can show you innumerable articles from that era where Greb is lauded as the logical contender for Dempsey regardless of his size. When Greb beat Tommy Gibbons the fight was promoted by Tex Rickard as to decide the logical white contender for Dempsey's championship. Dempsey was ringside for the fight and was quoted afterwards as saying that Greb was big enough to fight him, won all the way against Gibbons, and that it looked as if he would have to face Greb in the summer. Dempsey then went on a trip to Europe and upon his return changed his tune saying Greb was too small. Instead Dempsey chose to stay inactive for a year and when he returned to the ring he did so against Tommy Gibbons, who had lost nearly every round to Greb in the eliminator... This was lost on few at the time. Its one thing to hero worship Dempsey but lets not make up facts to suit your case.

Dempsey was quoted as saying Greb was "too small" before the Europe trip ....


[URL]********news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=wJBSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=iM0MAAAAIBAJ&pg=4808,6178474&dq=greb+not+too+small&hl=en[/URL]


Tex Rickard was notorious for billing matches as "eliminators", through the 1920s right up to his death. Firpo won a few.

[JAB5239]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

I will take this Klompton piece to the bank. But it doesn't detract from my opinion of Dempsey's greatness, nor the fact that I have read that Greb himself was quoted as saying to reporters "after 5 rounds or so Jack would kill me". Furthermore there is no more ardent advocate of Harry Greb, than I am, but I feel that a prime Dempsey would catch up to the much smaller Greb
and put him away. I know I would be a rooting and atooting for Harry Greb,
but Dempsey,power and speed would carry the day. Cheers MC...

With all due respect Burt, who would have won has nothing to do with the issue at hand, which is who was the best available. Greb had already thrashed several fighters Dempsey would go on to fight. There is no excuse for him not fighting Harry.

[Kalasinn]

@klompton: That's the biggest text-wall i've ever laid eyes upon!

[klompton]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

I will take this Klompton piece to the bank. But it doesn't detract from my opinion of Dempsey's greatness, nor the fact that I have read that Greb himself was quoted as saying to reporters "after 5 rounds or so Jack would kill me". Furthermore there is no more ardent advocate of Harry Greb, than I am, but I feel that a prime Dempsey would catch up to the much smaller Greb
and put him away. I know I would be a rooting and atooting for Harry Greb,
but Dempsey,power and speed would carry the day. Cheers MC...

Burt I'll give you $1,000 if you can find me a contemporary interview with Greb where he says this. Otherwise its bullshit as far as Im concerned. Greb was as confident of his ability as any fighter in history I have never read a quote from him that even comes close to suggesting he ever thought Dempsey would beat him much less outpoint him. In fact he was extremely consistent throughout his career that he had the utmost confidence in his ability to outpoint Dempsey.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Dempsey was quoted as saying Greb was "too small" before the Europe trip ....


[URL]********news.google.co.uk/newspapers?id=wJBSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=iM0MAAAAIBAJ&pg=4808,6178474&dq=greb+not+too+small&hl=en[/URL]
.

other ridiculous quotes by Dempsey in this article:

"I am sorry to have to go to Europe to defend my title, but as there are no fighters of note to meet me I must go."

Is he drunk, possibly?

He goes on to say that he was "disappointed" that Gibbons had been hammered by Greb because Greb wasn't ready to fight him yet...although he'd just beaten the guy he'd hoped to fight

Then he says that he can't fight Wills because the public isn't demanding it

Nice that Corbett took on the most qualified as opposed to the biggest or he might still be champ