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Old 11-29-2007, 09:37 AM   #31
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Default Re: 20 best Europeans p4p

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Originally Posted by Luigi1985
Agreed. I always thaught T-Booze is a a good poster, but in the last times he is getting worse and worse IMO...
Yeah i agree he's a good poster in general, but you gotta draw the line at Dariusz(and i actually liked him quite a bit) in the top ten light heavies of all time.
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Old 11-29-2007, 12:13 PM   #32
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Default Re: 20 best Europeans p4p

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Originally Posted by Luigi1985
I believe in serious newspaper sources, instead of hearing to a poster like you. He beat fighters like McTigue, Loughran, Walker, Scozza, Moody, Malone, Dundee, etc, that´s a hell of a resume, much better than many of the ones you have in your list...
I could of been around in the 20s and fought the likes of Walker and Loughran etc, I would still be awful. You are getting carried away with names (and it is good you know these names at your age); but you are not putting them in context. He did not beat anyone of note, he was a decent contender no more, and sure European fighters suck but there are at least 25/30 who suck less than him.
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Old 11-29-2007, 12:47 PM   #33
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Default Re: 20 best Europeans p4p

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Originally Posted by TBooze
I could of been around in the 20s and fought the likes of Walker and Loughran etc, I would still be awful. You are getting carried away with names (and it is good you know these names at your age); but you are not putting them in context. He did not beat anyone of note, he was a decent contender no more, and sure European fighters suck but there are at least 25/30 who suck less than him.
When Lou beat Mickey Walker, Walker had already beaten Dave Shade (in a bout where Shade broke his arm of course,) and then 5 months after the Bogash bout Walker beat Jack Britton for the welterweight title. Bogash caught him pre-prime, but he wasn't totally green.

As for Loughran, again, he was pre-prime, but he had already beaten Mike McTigue when Bogash beat him, and the only other fighters Loughran seemed to be losing to at the time were Tunney and Greb.

When you add to this that he held welter champ Jack Britton to a draw as a welterweight, and held Mike McTigue to a draw, whilst also arguably beating the likes of Flowers (he did of course beat him on the DQ) his resume doesn't look half bad.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:04 PM   #34
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Default Re: 20 best Europeans p4p

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When Lou beat Mickey Walker, Walker had already beaten Dave Shade (in a bout where Shade broke his arm of course,) and then 5 months after the Bogash bout Walker beat Jack Britton for the welterweight title. Bogash caught him pre-prime, but he wasn't totally green.

As for Loughran, again, he was pre-prime, but he had already beaten Mike McTigue when Bogash beat him, and the only other fighters Loughran seemed to be losing to at the time were Tunney and Greb.

When you add to this that he held welter champ Jack Britton to a draw as a welterweight, and held Mike McTigue to a draw, whilst also arguably beating the likes of Flowers (he did of course beat him on the DQ) his resume doesn't look half bad.
But he did not actually beat Loughran nor McTigue... Now Luis Santana holds two dq wins over Terry Norris, but I do not see him in any 154lbs all time lists.

Boxrec is an excellent to clarify points already known, but you cannot just look at someones record and presume they are good, because you see a few names you may recognize.

At least you may the effort of clarifying the points Luigi1985 choose not to.

Last edited by TBooze; 11-29-2007 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:39 PM   #35
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Default Re: 20 best Europeans p4p

Carpentier is an excellent example of that.

Vastly overrated fighter and several of his biggest wins were dubious as Senya previously mentioned.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:41 PM   #36
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Can not believe only some of you are mentioning Benny Lynch. He's one of the greatest small men ever, not just in Europe.
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Old 11-29-2007, 03:38 PM   #37
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Sweet Scientist you have a wierd way of rankign fighters, you like what u see on film and that is what u use to rank him higher. Cerdan didnt even accomplish half of what lewis did, lol. Emile Griffith has embarassing losses on his resume too, lennox is greater than cerdan in any way you look at it.
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Old 11-29-2007, 04:35 PM   #38
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I'd say Conteh was clearly better than Graham, Honeyghan, Calzaghe and Hamed.Depends on your criteria though and how you weigh up long title-reigns or head to head.

Others like Buchanan are debatable.I'd take John over him and maybe Lynch.

The likes of Lewis just accomplished to much to be rated lower than any of the others mentioned.
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Old 11-29-2007, 04:38 PM   #39
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Conteh better than Calzaghe?

How on earth do you come to these conclusions?

Calzaghe has a perfect resume. Calzaghe is clearly excellent in videos. Lewis was great, but he is way below Calzaghe because he actually had vunerabilities.

You cannot justify placing any of these fighters above Calzaghe based on any criteria whatsoever.
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Old 11-29-2007, 04:46 PM   #40
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He was a far better boxer-puncher than Joe and i think would have dismantled him head to head.he beat better fighters and fought a higher level of competition.


Calzaghe was a disgrace to British boxing for years and a few high profile late career fights against a fine fighter Kessler and a terrible Lacy won't pull the wool over my eyes.
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Old 11-29-2007, 05:00 PM   #41
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Default Re: 20 best Europeans p4p

Quote:
Originally Posted by BritInvasion
I'm suprised you rate Conteh quite that high. I couldn't rate him over Hamed or Calzaghe - those guys' reputations will grow in time, but I think Honeyghan is more debateable. To be honest, its hard to justify Herol, other than the fact I like him, so I won't try. I kinda felt Honeyghan's big win would keep him over Conteh.

Well it's probably a minority opinion.


I don't tend to put resume and wins on a pedestal like that(honeyghan vs Curry).I consider them of course, though prefer head to head and peak ability.

Honeyghan would have had no chance of beating a Conteh or Buchanan and simply wasn't as good.hamed i feel the same with Hamed and to a lesser extent Calzaghe.
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Old 11-29-2007, 05:04 PM   #42
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Default Re: 20 best Europeans p4p

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Originally Posted by BritInvasion
****in hell, its not like Cazlaghe is 35-7. The ****er is unbeaten. Kessler and Lacy are as big a threat as reasonably could have fought during any of his reign. Eubank is a great win for a young guy moving to World level.
I think in 10 years time Joe above Conteh will be unviersally accepted.
Probably but it'll still be wrong to me.

Hell, with all the Calzaghe fanboys it's probably the consensus now.

I'd wager he's overtaken Buchanan as well now in many fans opinions.
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Old 11-29-2007, 05:13 PM   #43
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Default Re: 20 best Europeans p4p

He'd definitely have his obligatory punchers chance.

I should probably have phrased that as saying they would be very heavy underdogs and not realistic winners for me...rather than having no chance at all.
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Old 11-29-2007, 05:44 PM   #44
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Default Re: 20 best Europeans p4p

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Perhaps someone should start a thread on best fighters from Novascotia.
Done.
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Old 11-30-2007, 04:09 AM   #45
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Default Re: 20 best Europeans p4p

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBooze
I could of been around in the 20s and fought the likes of Walker and Loughran etc, I would still be awful. You are getting carried away with names (and it is good you know these names at your age); but you are not putting them in context. He did not beat anyone of note, he was a decent contender no more, and sure European fighters suck but there are at least 25/30 who suck less than him.

T-Booze, you are probably the one who uses only boxrec, I have a lot of fight reports of Bogash (most of them are from the New York Times), and he was one of the best fighters of his era (a very strong era btw), he was a small Welterweight who was only 5ī5 tall, and he fought later in his career even much bigger good LHWīs like Scozza and beat most of them, when he drew for example the 1st fight with Britton, he got robbed, and Jack didnīt give him the rematch he deserved and the media/ fans wanted. Than, later as a MW, he fought everyone and beat most of them, look, for example a fighter like Gianfranco Rosi (I take another Italian as an example extra) looks better when you look at his record with all his title defenses and all that, but if you look particularly, you will see that a Loughran or a Walker-win is way better than beating 10 mediocre fighters who didnīt deserve their title shot, you know what I mean?
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