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Old 11-30-2007, 12:59 AM   #31
dmt
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

Chris, what i don't get is that u continually refer to Dempsey as if everyone is rating him high, yet people here pick the likes of Floyd Patterson and Michael Spinks to beat him, claim that he had a "crappy" chin based on one ko loss, and criticise him for fighting Willard even though to win the title u have to fight who the champion is. So why even bother with these threads when alot of people have a lower opinion on Dempsey then u do? Dempsey is proabably the most criticised fighter on the forum, quiet often there are criticisms of him in three to four threads at one time. He is even accused of having "loaded gloves" by some here.
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:55 AM   #32
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

I don't think one can conclude that Dempsey's opponnents were not very good. Miske had good wins following the Dempsey fight and was one of the top contenders of the era, this is a very good win for Dempsey. Gibbons fought some top guys as well, this seems like a good win.
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:59 AM   #33
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

Gibbons lost nearly every time he stepped up? It doesn't look that way to me. Gibbons lost to Greb but Greb was capable of beating good heavyweights despite his size.
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Old 11-30-2007, 04:02 AM   #34
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

Jeanette was out of contention during Dempsey's prime. Dempsey would have had no reason to fight him.
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Old 11-30-2007, 04:08 AM   #35
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
That is one sorry ass judgement from Arcel. Even about Ali, who i rank #1 head to head, you can't claim "he would beat any fighter, no doubt about it, he'd kill Louis, etc". That's plain ignorant. Arcel may be judging on faded memories, on a youth hero or whatever. To say that Dempsey has no weaknesses pretty much shows how weak his assessement is here.
To be honest I think it says more about the weakness of your assesment.

This is about as credible a testimony as you can get yet you choose to ignore it because it goes against your preconceptions which are based on a verry little. You are prepared to seize on any tetimony however unrepresentative that criticises Dempsey yet this dosnt even merit a second look.

What do you imagine was going through Arcels mind. Was he so stupid that he did not realise that this primitive limited fighter would be toast for any superior champion over 200 lbs.

Quote:
Anyone can see that him carrying his hands low is a weakness
Debatable

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and a big part of his offence can be neutralised by tieing him up (which can also be said of Tyson and Frazier).
Tyson and Frazier maybe but not Dempsey.

Quote:
Dempsey a walkover against Foreman who makes him look like a matchstick and wants his opponent to come forward? Yeah, right.
Perhaps you need to look beyond the fact that Foreman has bigger biceps and actualy analyse the fight.
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Old 11-30-2007, 04:17 AM   #36
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cojimar 1945
Gibbons lost nearly every time he stepped up? It doesn't look that way to me. Gibbons lost to Greb but Greb was capable of beating good heavyweights despite his size.
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Old 11-30-2007, 04:25 AM   #37
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
You don't rank Foster as a top 17 light heavyweight, wtf's up with you?
I wish you wouldnt give other people credit for my exploits.
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Old 11-30-2007, 05:24 AM   #38
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

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Originally Posted by janitor
I wish you wouldnt give other people credit for my exploits.

Well it certainly shows who knows their shit, and who don't - emphatically.
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Old 11-30-2007, 05:54 AM   #39
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

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Well it certainly shows who knows their shit, and who don't - emphatically.
Many of the people pushing the anti Dempsey bandwagon here seem to lack basic knowledge of the era like thge time scale between Dempsey and fighters from adjacent areas, and the relative standing of certain fighters within the era.

Hardly the basis for a festival of self congratulation.
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Old 11-30-2007, 06:15 AM   #40
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Many of the people pushing the anti Dempsey bandwagon here seem to lack basic knowledge of the era like thge time scale between Dempsey and fighters from adjacent areas, and the relative standing of certain fighters within the era.

Hardly the basis for a festival of self congratulation.
Sorry, but i'm not talking Dempsey. I'm talking Foster

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Old 11-30-2007, 06:25 AM   #41
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmt
Chris, what i don't get is that u continually refer to Dempsey as if everyone is rating him high, yet people here pick the likes of Floyd Patterson and Michael Spinks to beat him, claim that he had a "crappy" chin based on one ko loss, and criticise him for fighting Willard even though to win the title u have to fight who the champion is.
I would like to see a link to all of those 3 accusations. I have not seen anyone blaming Dempsey for fighting Willard in all the time i've been posting here. Neither have i seen anyone claim that Patterson or Spinks would beat Dempsey, the only thing i saw is that someone claimed Spinks could go the distance with Dempsey, which is not all that unreasonable considering lesser fighters went 12 and 15 with Dempsey as well.
In case you were referring to me about criticising him for fighting Willard, i merely stated that his ranking seems to skyrocket because the brutality of the win, while most people don't know how horribly bad Willard was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmt
So why even bother with these threads when alot of people have a lower opinion on Dempsey then u do? Dempsey is proabably the most criticised fighter on the forum, quiet often there are criticisms of him in three to four threads at one time. He is even accused of having "loaded gloves" by some here.
I think this is the first time Dempsey is criticised widely within more than a years time. Hey - it happens, this is a forum. There was a time when there were 4 "Quitali Quitschko is a bitch" threads on the front page for a week. At least my threads and posts are of constructive nature. Holmes has had a shitload of criticism, too. Not to mention Marciano and Lewis.
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Old 11-30-2007, 06:27 AM   #42
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
To be honest I think it says more about the weakness of your assesment.

This is about as credible a testimony as you can get yet you choose to ignore it because it goes against your preconceptions which are based on a verry little. You are prepared to seize on any tetimony however unrepresentative that criticises Dempsey yet this dosnt even merit a second look.

What do you imagine was going through Arcels mind. Was he so stupid that he did not realise that this primitive limited fighter would be toast for any superior champion over 200 lbs.
Look, all i'm saying is that even great trainers can have very flawed judgement. There are other great trainers (forgot their names at the moment) who had Ken Norton, and believe it or, Earnie Shavers in their top10 list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Perhaps you need to look beyond the fact that Foreman has bigger biceps and actualy analyse the fight.
Okay, how about this. Dempsey takes half a minute to stay on the outside, then comes inside, eats a huge uppercut and contrary to the wild swinging Firpo (the only puncher that landed on Dempsey), Foreman has pretty good accuracy and will finish him sooner or later.
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Old 11-30-2007, 06:35 AM   #43
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Look, all i'm saying is that even great trainers can have very flawed judgement. There are other great trainers (forgot their names at the moment) who had Ken Norton, and believe it or, Earnie Shavers in their top10 list.
Yes trainers do tend to favour fighters they have worked with but they will still give a realistic assesment of the strengths and weakneses of a given fighter and their style.

They wont make a fighter into something they are not.

Furthermore if you intend to use Arcels possible bias to dismis his testimony it would help if you could come up with some other unrealistic asesments on his part. This is one trainer who as far as I can see was generaly conservative in his asesments.

Quote:
Okay, how about this. Dempsey takes half a minute to stay on the outside, then comes inside, eats a huge uppercut and contrary to the wild swinging Firpo (the only puncher that landed on Dempsey), Foreman has pretty good accuracy and will finish him sooner or later.
This is a possible scenario but a more likley one is that Dempsey is just too fast and counters Foreman every time he throws one of those swings putting him in hot water quickly.

The scenario you describe seems to involve Foreman wining due to an element of luck.
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Old 11-30-2007, 06:36 AM   #44
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Sorry, but i'm not talking Dempsey. I'm talking Foster

Dempsey would destroy Foster in one round.

That is about as far as Foster is relevant to this thread.
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Old 11-30-2007, 07:24 AM   #45
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Dempsey would destroy Foster in one round.

That is about as far as Foster is relevant to this thread.
I'm not so sure. Foster was black, and could fight a bit. Like Wills. I'm betting the fight wouldn't have happened

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