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Old 11-30-2007, 10:51 AM   #61
mr. magoo
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Yeah fair enough. To be honest i don't mind debates where one poster has his mind made up already, but has thought deeply about the subject to come to where he sits. Stonehands is one, tho he's not totally shut or anything. He i think, like i, see many a good debate as you giving your, he giving his and each debating a bit against the others points. In these scenario's i see no need for meeting in the middle or conceding. I believe these debates gives an observer a really good look at the opposing points and he is in the excellent position of being able to make his own merit from both sides. I quite like a good deep debate where neither gives ground as they are quite entrenched in their own view.

A good example is the superlative debate or two stonehands and Meta5 had ages back. I'll never forget that one, awesome depth and hard fought, but never beyond civil. I should have saved the damn thing.
Crosstrainer and Amsterdam had a great debate several months ago as well, and although went in depth, remained civil and gentleman like. CT and Amsterdam are both great posters. I've also had a few really close ones myself. I don't have a problem with conceding on my views if someone truly points something out that I may not have seen before. There's nothing wrong with taking on a new view of something, if you truly believe it has validity. A lot of guys here unfortunately, refuse to change their opinions due to shear pride and the human drive to save face, and that's just damn frustrating in my opinion.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:56 AM   #62
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Crosstrainer and Amsterdam had a great debate several months ago as well, and although went in depth, remained civil and gentleman like. CT and Amsterdam are both great posters. I've also had a few really close ones myself. I don't have a problem with conceding on my views if someone truly points something out that I may not have seen before. There's nothing wrong with taking on a new view of something, if you truly believe it has validity. A lot of guys here unfortunately, refuse to change their opinions due to shear pride and the human drive to save face, and that's just damn frustrating in my opinion.
Fair post again.
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:03 AM   #63
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
We'll go again then. My response was to janitor claiming Dempsey would destroy Foster in one round. Do you find HIS comment fair? Or are you just judging mine? Dempsey didn't even stop the light hitting 175 Gibbons. Carpentier lasted 4 with a broken thumb. Do you find his immense speculation and throwing out of Foster fair?
Well while Gibbons was light-hitting he had the slickness to last the distance. And yeah perhaps the comment was somewhat unfair. Foster woul probably last some rounds before losing, then again it's not a great match up or anything since Foster was only great light-heavy, not heavy.
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:05 AM   #64
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

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Originally Posted by dmt
Well while Gibbons was light-hitting he had the slickness to last the distance. And yeah perhaps the comment was somewhat unfair. Foster woul probably last some rounds before losing, then again it's not a great match up or anything since Foster was only great light-heavy, not heavy.
Ok, so you consider we both made unfair comments. The good news is mine was a kneejerk rebuttal in jest, whilst his is his long thought out full term view.

Thanking you

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Old 11-30-2007, 11:09 AM   #65
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

Remember too Foster gave both Ali and Frazier some real heavy leather before going down. Who knows what might happen if this sort of shrapnel lands on a 20 and 30 pound lighter man.
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:11 AM   #66
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

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Remember too Foster gave both Ali and Frazier some real heavy leather before going down. Who knows what might happen if this sort of shrapnel lands on a 20 and 30 pound lighter man.
Frankly John, I think both the men in your avator would have a fair chance of taking you know who, regardless of their much lower weight perameters.
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:14 AM   #67
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

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Frankly John, I think both the men in your avator would have a fair chance of taking you know who, regardless of their much lower weight perameters.
Well Hagler has that chin of steel and NOBODY is more elusive than Leonard vs the big men. Hagler prolly walks around at 170. If he came out like he did vs Hearns.....
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:23 AM   #68
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

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Well Hagler has that chin of steel and NOBODY is more elusive than Leonard vs the big men. Hagler prolly walks around at 170. If he came out like he did vs Hearns.....
Sugar had some great performances against taller men who could really box and bang like no tomarrow. Tommy Hearns of course was one, and lightheavyweight champ Lalonde was another. Ray also pounded Donny when he was past his prime and on the comeback trail. For one to think that a prime Leonard fighting at say 165 could outbox you know who, is not entirely out of the question. Hagler, Hearns, Duran and Lalonde all hit like they were in a weight class higher. Sugar survived their onsloughts, and outclassed them as well. Marvin needless to say was a machine. He had a punch comparable to that of some heavyweights, and a chin to match. Given that so many fighters who weren't indigenous to the heavywieght division frequented it back in the 20's, its not unreasonable to think that a lot of all time great middleweights and lightheavyweights may have ruled the throne. A few weeks ago, you started a thread on Spinks vs you know who. I picked Spinks to dethrone you know who.
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:42 AM   #69
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

oh god, i can't belive Leonard and Hagler are given a shot vs Dempsey, this is laughable and quiet sad honestly
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:50 AM   #70
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

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oh god, i can't belive Leonard and Hagler are given a shot vs Dempsey, this is laughable and quiet sad honestly
Perhaps you're right. Given that numerous other middleweights and lightheavyweights, whom you know who fought loads of were unsuccessful at beating him, maybe its a bad suggestion.
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Old 11-30-2007, 12:03 PM   #71
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Perhaps you're right. Given that numerous other middleweights and lightheavyweights, whom you know who fought loads of were unsuccessful at beating him, maybe its a bad suggestion.
yeah because he was a giant facing guys 50-60 pounds lighter then him yeah? He fought two fighters during his title reign that were light-heavies, Gibbons who was 15 lbs lighter and Carpeinter who was 18 lbs lighter, those are not middleweights.
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Old 11-30-2007, 12:04 PM   #72
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
I would like to see a link to all of those 3 accusations. I have not seen anyone blaming Dempsey for fighting Willard in all the time i've been posting here. Neither have i seen anyone claim that Patterson or Spinks would beat Dempsey, the only thing i saw is that someone claimed Spinks could go the distance with Dempsey, which is not all that unreasonable considering lesser fighters went 12 and 15 with Dempsey as well.
In case you were referring to me about criticising him for fighting Willard, i merely stated that his ranking seems to skyrocket because the brutality of the win, while most people don't know how horribly bad Willard was.
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well now u have seen Hagler and Leonard being given a shot at Dempsey
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Old 11-30-2007, 12:14 PM   #73
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
We'll go again then. My response was to janitor claiming Dempsey would destroy Foster in one round. Do you find HIS comment fair? Or are you just judging mine? Dempsey didn't even stop the light hitting 175 Gibbons. Carpentier lasted 4 with a broken thumb. Do you find his immense speculation and throwing out of Foster fair?
Gibbons was not a light hitter. He was a real knockout artist at light heavyweight. More crucialy he also had an all time chin unlike Foster.

Oh and there is some evidence that Dempsey caried Carpinter.
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Old 11-30-2007, 12:21 PM   #74
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
We have to rate Dempsey based on what he actually DID accomplish.
Even on that basis he dose not get a fair write up.

His critics have no apreciation of who the people he beat were and what these wins mean on the ground at the time.

Trial by boxrec tehnds to downgrade a win over a man who was a serious force in the division at the time to a win over an OK fighter. Nobody raves about a win over Johny Risko but there was a time when the general forum would have been fairly equaly divided over whether he or Jack Sharkey was going to inherit Gene Tunnneys throne.

Nobody rates Fred Fulton historicaly but when Dempsey blasted him in 18 seconds he was regarded as the outstanding contender in the world. We have people dismising tommy Gibbons because he was a former light heavyweight or whatever. The guy was the No2 heavyweight contender.

this is the reality of what these wins mean.
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Old 11-30-2007, 01:21 PM   #75
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Default Re: Question to those who rank Dempsey high

I do not have any other Arcel's quotes so i can't make that assessement.



Also, i think it's pretty naive to think Foreman needs luck. Make a poll and see how many people think Foreman would win. Dempsey comes right at him, no luck needed there. Foreman is by far bigger, heavier punches. I know you refuse to believe that a 225 lbs man may have an advantage over a skinny 185lbs one, but most people with first-hand experience, including myself, know otherwise.
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