Most overrated HW of all time.

[NickHudson]

Mate,

Lewis was certainly blessed with greater physical tools than Holyfield. No dount about that. Unfortunately many feel ( I am one of them) he didnt use them as Holyfield would have.

All boxers considered chinny have also survived in other matches. Patterson is chinny, but wasn't knocked down by Moore who put rock-chinned Marciano on the deck. He also annihilated Johansson in two of their matches, and Johansson had a tremendous right hand punch. Patterson is still chinny though, despite these performances.

The Tyson-Douglas example does not support your argument. Douglas was awesome that night, and Tyson went down in a thriller, fighting his guts out like a true champion until the last few moments, and decking Douglas along the way. Lewis caved in like a deck of cards to a single punch in both his losses. The McCall and Rahman that beat Lewis were not a patch on the Douglas that beat Tyson...

Originally Posted by Balboa

Firstly my 5 cents worth on the Lewis debate. He lost twice by stoppage to perhaps not the best oposition at the time but give the guy his dues he was straight back in there to avenge his loses. Regarding his chin, I don't think anyone can say that Tua, Morrison etc were not big punchers but he with stood some big shots from many guys but stayed vertical, the fact he was knocked/tko'd twice is just unfortunate, hey this is heavy weight boxing brother knockouts are inevitable. I place him above Holyfield at HEAVY as I think he was able/blessed with better tools for the job. Lewis is above Tyson as I think he was just better, Tyson carried a lot of quality to the ring but could be beaten by a talented and metally strong fight which Lewis was. Bowe I consider less than these three due to his short period at the top and I think he would struggle with Lewis whos physicality was similar to Bowe's therefore nullifying a lot of Bowe big weapons i.e. reach.

Now for most overrated I have to say Ali unfortunely. Before I get flamed I would like to say I have Ali top 2/3 all time heavy. His resume speaks for itself but I do think due to his personna the spotlight on him has always shone more brightly and causes people to look back with rose tinted glasses on his performances.

Finally all those who say no ATG heavy has ever beaten taken out by a mediocre fighter like Lewis, I would be interested on your thoughts about Tyson-Douglas. I rate Douglas on the same sort of level as McCall and Rahman and don't see loses to any of the three to be unforgivable.

I prepare to be flamed

[robert ungurean]

For the last time its Lennox Lewis!!!
One of the most Big fragil men ever.
He was a big,safty first ,fragil,heart & soul lacking overated HWC.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by NickHudson

Bummy Davis,

I am interested in your top 10 HWs based on your analysis below:

1) Who are the other HWs that are so good Ali has only 'a case' for top 4? Everyone else on the forum has Ali a lock for top2, and most at #1.

2) Where do you rank Holmes as I see you mock a top3 placing.

48 consecutive wins over a 13 year stretch, including Norton, Shavers, Weaver, Berbick, Witherspoon and Smith is a tremendous run of form.

I am also amazed at your comment that 'old timers' would laugh at a top3 ranking, as Holmes is the modern heavy that most resembled one of the craftsmen of the 20s and 30s. I think many old timers would approve of a high Holmes placing. I find the textbook ramrod job, the years of sparring and learning from Ali, plus his will-to-win and general guts as a very difficult combination to overcome.

I Have Ali at 3 but I see a lot of people have him rated over 1 as the all time greatest ever superman. Ali was a top 4 lock IMO but he could lose on a given night to Louis,Dempsey,Marciano,Frazier and others. Holmes won a split decision over a15 fight Witherspoon but many felt spoon won(Holmes never rematched him) Norton lost a SD to Holmes on 6/09/78 but Norton was KO'd in 1 by Shavers on 3/23/79 and dropped twice in the 10th round and lucky to Draw with journeyman Scott Ledoux on 8/19/79 and out of Nortons next 5 fights he won 2, Berbick was a wide punching muscle guy but look how Tyson bounced him around, Weaver was a19-8 fighter when Holmes fought him and he Wacked Holmes around the ring until a premature stop(Holmes never rematched Weaver) and Holmes never unified, Smith was a big Bum, Holmes also avoided to many fighters in his era,Page,Dokes,Coetzee,Thomas,Weaver,Williams and Witherspoon in rematches then he lost to soft touch Spinks but Holmes never tried to unify and avoided good right hand Bangers. Holmes had skills but avoided too many to be listed so high, I have Holmes bordering the top 10, he fought the weakest contenders and never unified

[Seamus]

Ali is usually over-rated, Dempsey, also. Both are given more credit than is due for their abilities because they came around at the right time.

But no one is more over-rated than Jack Johnson, a middlin' champion at best. A more sober eye finds him quite disappointing.

Lewis is decidedly under-rated. I would bet on him to beat any champion head-to-head who ever lived. He could lose, no doubt, but the ODDS are he would win.

[Dempsey1238]

Even PRIME Tyson?? Or Joe Louis?? I dont see Lewis getting by them.

[Bummy Davis]

Lewis had a great offence but not lasting stamina or late power, his KO over Rahman was classic(but Maskaev did it to Rahman also 2 times) tKo over Rudduck was good, Ko over Golota,Botha,Grant very good but the talent was abit better than ordinary, He could not hurt Evander or Mercer, so he is hard to judge

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Ali is usually over-rated, Dempsey, also. Both are given more credit than is due for their abilities because they came around at the right time.

Yeah, Ali was so lucky to come thru such a weak era wasn't he. Sonny Liston the champ, then followed by peak Frazier and Foreman. Easybeats, all three. Contenders like Young, Norton, Lyle, Shavers, more fruit.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by JohnThomas1

Yeah, Ali was so lucky to come thru such a weak era wasn't he. Sonny Liston the champ, then followed by peak Frazier and Foreman. Easybeats, all three. Contenders like Young, Norton, Lyle, Shavers, more fruit.

Not that I don't think Ali was great, I just don't think his farts cure cancer like some.

Devil's Advocacte...
Liston was old as dirt and threw at least one of those fights for money or fear.

Norton would not even be remembered were it not for the fact he had Ali's number.


Foreman beat two decent (one good in Norton and one well on his way down in Frazier) fighters in his early reign. Probably the most protected heavy prospect of all time.


Shavers got beat by lots of people noone remembers, Young was a sparring partner, Lyle a stubborn but not all that talented cat...

Meanwhile, Ali got gifted Norton III, lost to Spinks-unforgiveable at any age, and fought a bunch of fleabags in the 70's.

OK, back to reality, do I consider Ali one of the top 2 heavies of all-time by virtue of his record? Yes. Can I still consider him to be over-rated despite this lofty praise? Yes.

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Not that I don't think Ali was great, I just don't think his farts cure cancer like some.

Devil's Advocacte...
Liston was old as dirt and threw at least one of those fights for money or fear.

Norton would not even be remembered were it not for the fact he had Ali's number.


Foreman beat two decent (one good in Norton and one well on his way down in Frazier) fighters in his early reign. Probably the most protected heavy prospect of all time.


Shavers got beat by lots of people noone remembers, Young was a sparring partner, Lyle a stubborn but not all that talented cat...

Meanwhile, Ali got gifted Norton III, lost to Spinks-unforgiveable at any age, and fought a bunch of fleabags in the 70's.

OK, back to reality, do I consider Ali one of the top 2 heavies of all-time by virtue of his record? Yes. Can I still consider him to be over-rated despite this lofty praise? Yes.

A negative slant like this can be aimed at anyones career/record. This is absolute worst case scenario. The facts are that Ali very likely fought the toughest collective of any Heavyweight champ ever. If we really want to get back to reality, 3 of Ali's victims are commonly found in the Top 10 Heavyweight lists ever, often all 3 at once.

[Dempsey1238]

Fraizer sometimes makes my list. Foreman often does also. Liston has never made my top ten list. He is always a what if, sort of like Baer.

[Street Lethal]

Rocky Marciano. It wasn't that he wasn't a hell of a fighter, but when I see him ranked in the top 10 all time list then he is overrated.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by JohnThomas1

A negative slant like this can be aimed at anyones career/record. This is absolute worst case scenario.

bullshit. facts are facts. Foreman was entirely protected. Liston threw at least one of those fights. Norton would be another over-exalted 70's contender were it not for his ability to give Ali fits- that is the ONLY thing he has going for him. Shavers, Young and Lyle were were b-level fighters at best. Dispute these contentions, please.

Ali is OVER-rated but still highly rated by me. OVER-rated because many want to deify him rather than take him warts and all.

Oh yeah, no body attack, clinched and held as much as any heavy since 1910, allowed to grab the ropes, clutch opponents necks...

Still, number 2 all-time in my book as a heavy.

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by Dempsey1238

Fraizer sometimes makes my list. Foreman often does also. Liston has never made my top ten list. He is always a what if, sort of like Baer.

Liston comes down heavily to personal perception and criteria. He always makes my top 10, lower half. I look at all the work he did pre title, basically clearing the challengers Patterson wasn't so keen to face. Sonny really should have been champ at this time but couldn't get his shot. By the time he fought Clay he was getting a bit old and facing a stylistic nightmare. The second fight was a fix IMO. Almost definitely. Head to head i think he beats Frazier and Foreman.

You know, this convo inspires me to get some reading material about Sonny. I think there is 2 books. I must look.

[hdog]

Roy Jones Junior?

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by Seamus

bullshit. facts are facts. Foreman was entirely protected.

I knew you absolutely hated Liston, but didn't realise you were so hard on Foreman as well, sheesh.

Ok. Protected? I'd term it brought along carefully rather than protected. At the end of the day he still had to face a champion that had beaten Ali and was held in great esteem. A great fighter. You can spin the old and fragile stuff all day but the facts are Foreman beat a dominant champion, a great one. Not only beat him, he anniliated the man. Obliterated. He did the same thing to the decent, very decent, Norton. It wasn't even a contest. Spare me the crap that Foreman isn't a great fighter or a great, absolutely great, win for Ali. Even at a ridiculous age he was still able to come back and win the world title. Little doubt you will attack Moorer, but a fact is indeed a fact.

Norton would be another over-exalted 70's contender were it not for his ability to give Ali fits- that is the ONLY thing he has going for him. Shavers, Young and Lyle were were b-level fighters at best. Dispute these contentions, please.

This group is no worse than the main of pretty much any champion ever. Are we forgetting the fits Norton gave Holmes by any chance? That's not one, but two great fighters he troubled immensely. Norton is a damn good fighter who struggled vs aggressive big hitting fighters but was a nightmare for all others. Add Liston, Foreman and Frazier on top and we have the best group of names on any champs resume IMO.

Out of interest, what champion faced better opposition than Ali? We might open up their opposition under a similar light.

Ali is OVER-rated but still highly rated by me. OVER-rated because many want to deify him rather than take him warts and all.

I myself rate the Ali that was exiled as the best of him. I think he lost a fair bit of effectiveness later which showed in later struggles vs Young, Norton and co.

Oh yeah, no body attack, clinched and held as much as any heavy since 1910, allowed to grab the ropes, clutch opponents necks...

You forget a seldom used left hook, but he did quite ok with what he had. Again, any champ can be dragged down. Louis had heavy feet, tho he'd be close to the most complete heavyweight ever.

Still, number 2 all-time in my book as a heavy.

I have Ali 1 and Joe 2, but it's debatable. Joe didn't have the great wins Ali had (Tho you'd disagree lol) but he had a sensational level of consistency. Great fighters.