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Old 07-29-2007, 12:43 AM   #196
Dempsey1238
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

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Liston comes down heavily to personal perception and criteria. He always makes my top 10, lower half. I look at all the work he did pre title, basically clearing the challengers Patterson wasn't so keen to face. Sonny really should have been champ at this time but couldn't get his shot. By the time he fought Clay he was getting a bit old and facing a stylistic nightmare. The second fight was a fix IMO. Almost definitely. Head to head i think he beats Frazier and Foreman.

You know, this convo inspires me to get some reading material about Sonny. I think there is 2 books. I must look.
Yeah Liston clean out the top divsion and all. But I cant get over him flopping the way he did vs Ali the 2nd time.
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Old 07-29-2007, 12:45 AM   #197
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Ali
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:01 AM   #198
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

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Yeah Liston clean out the top divsion and all. But I cant get over him flopping the way he did vs Ali the 2nd time.
Well i take the belief that he threw the fight and if he didn't the mafia may have given him and family the good old blowtorch. I think the guy had no choice. Many many fighters dogged it for the mafia but Liston, due to his menacing reputation, the fact that he had the biggest title in sport, the importance of the fight and Ali's sheer magnetism is singled out like no other. I dare say a handful of ATG's have done similar, just not on a stage as big as Liston - Ali.
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:11 AM   #199
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Well the Mob threating Marciano if he didnt thown the ****ell fight. And did Rocky take the dive?? No he crush ****ell in 9 rounds. And even if Liston was theating, I sure they would not have acting on it at the time. Ali was pretty hated with him switicng to the new name and Islam and all. I think it would be the Mob's BEST move if they had Liston as champ, than compare to Ali.
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:22 AM   #200
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

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Well the Mob threating Marciano if he didnt thown the ****ell fight. And did Rocky take the dive?? No he crush ****ell in 9 rounds. And even if Liston was theating, I sure they would not have acting on it at the time. Ali was pretty hated with him switicng to the new name and Islam and all. I think it would be the Mob's BEST move if they had Liston as champ, than compare to Ali.
Liston was in deep with the mob, Marciano never was. Big difference. Hey, good on Marciano and co for resisting and sad that Sonny didn't from day one. I think however life led him that way. I'll have to get his book and get some facts.
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:25 AM   #201
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I belive the mob would perfer Liston over Ali at the time. I mean Ali was relly on the media's bad side with Islam and the Clay to Ali changing and all that. Also Malcome X was killed shortly before the fight. I see the mob if they were took part in the fight, be backing Liston in a case like this.
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:27 AM   #202
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

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I belive the mob would perfer Liston over Ali at the time. I mean Ali was relly on the media's bad side with Islam and the Clay to Ali changing and all that. Also Malcome X was killed shortly before the fight. I see the mob if they were took part in the fight, be backing Liston in a case like this.
I've got no doubt at all in my own mind that Liston took a dive in the second fight. The mob liked their money and Liston was still favourite i believe. I think Clay beat him fairly in the first, Liston may or may not have been in great shape.
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:31 AM   #203
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

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Marciano belongs in the top heavyweights of all time. He earn and prove himself to be with the elite. He has beating Great fighters and HOFERS like Louis, Walcott, Charles and Moore. And 3 of em were a murders role at the time.
Joe Louis was 37 and his career was really over. Ezzard Charles had decisively defeated him a year earlier. In his prime, Louis would have beaten Marciano. Walcott was 38 with many losses on his record, and he almost beat Rocky. Moore was 38 years old and a light heavyweight. Charles was 33, but his best days were long behind him, and he was a natural light heavyweight anyway, and he did quote well against Marciano. As much as I respect all these boxers, they were all in the twilight of their careers. Marciano would have needed to defeat a lot of young elite heavyweights before I would consider him for a spot in the top 10 all time boxers.
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:37 AM   #204
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Walcott, Charles, and Moore pretty much clean out the guys Rocky didnt fight though. They were the top contenders. I belive the first Marciano fight ruin Charles. He was impressive vs Johnson(Highway robber) Shatterfiled, and Wallace. Charles still had a lot left.

Moore has beating EVEY top contender to get his shot at the crown. And Walcott had 2 impressive wins over Charles, and a first impressive fight with Marciano. These guys were STILL great fighters when they fought the Rock.
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Old 07-29-2007, 06:00 AM   #205
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Please understand that me thinking Ali is over-rated does not negate the fact I believe he stands as one of the greatest HW's ever.

Now for the nitpicking, Norton's loss to Holmes is an exagerrated Phyric victory. Holmes went on to defend against the greatest collection of bums ever assembled, so how good was he really? Pretty damn good, but we don't really know because the likes of Scott Frank and a coked up Spinks don't provide proper litmus tests.

The exiled Ali never fought, so there is no basis in saying some upstart wouldn't have figured out the limitations in his game. Everyone is beatable, at every stage of their career. That whole thread of arguementation is a non-starter.

I don't hate Liston; I do rather despise his characterization by the media. He was a hell of a fighter, who I enjoy rewatching.

Foreman was rediculously over-protected. Even the match-making vs. Ali was considered a pre-ordained annihilation. Look at his record pre-Frazier, simply paddycake tomato cans. What were they hiding?

You will really have to go to great lengths to prove Norton was some sort of great fighter. He was strong and persistent- with gaping easily ,exploitable flaws- and that is it. If you carried a decent punch, and believed in it as part of your strategy, you had a good chance against him.
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Old 07-29-2007, 06:13 AM   #206
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Right here and now?
****ing Wlad Klitschko, for ****s sake.
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Old 07-29-2007, 06:33 AM   #207
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

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Originally Posted by Seamus
Please understand that me thinking Ali is over-rated does not negate the fact I believe he stands as one of the greatest HW's ever.
I've followed, your rating him at 2 is plenty defendable. Top 2 is the norm.

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Now for the nitpicking, Norton's loss to Holmes is an exagerrated Phyric victory. Holmes went on to defend against the greatest collection of bums ever assembled, so how good was he really? Pretty damn good, but we don't really know because the likes of Scott Frank and a coked up Spinks don't provide proper litmus tests.
Well ya pretty fair hahaha. Certainly no punches pulled on anyone. I agree Larry fought in an easy time which is one reason why i rate Ali's resume very very highly. Many will tell us Louis, Marciano or both had an average assortment of opponent too. Much comes back to personal opinion. Ali IMO is definitely the most tested.

Regarding Norton - Holmes, well it's a toughie. I rate Norton just one step below Holmes, Ali and the likes. Maybe one and a half given losses like Shavers. Not great and i'd never claim he was, but i thought he showed some excellent abaility against a Holmes i rate highly head to head. As you hint, it comes back to our own perception of Holmes. I rate him very high (contrary to some opinion as i bagged his choice of defenses late career) but can see how many can debate he wasn't all that.

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The exiled Ali never fought, so there is no basis in saying some upstart wouldn't have figured out the limitations in his game. Everyone is beatable, at every stage of their career. That whole thread of arguementation is a non-starter.
What i said/meant was that the Ali fighting right before exile is IMO the best Ali ever. IMO the Norton struggles were just as much from Ali's aging as Norton's style and tactics. Personally i see the Ali right before exile winning comfortable decisions vs Norton. Ali after the exile had lost a lot and i don't agree for one second that his extra size/style whatever made him just as good a fighter.

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[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Re: Most overrated HW of all time.
Please understand that me thinking Ali is over-rated does not negate the fact I believe he stands as one of the greatest HW's ever.

Now for the nitpicking, Norton's loss to Holmes is an exagerrated Phyric victory. Holmes went on to defend against the greatest collection of bums ever assembled, so how good was he really? Pretty damn good, but we don't really know because the likes of Scott Frank and a coked up Spinks don't provide proper litmus tests.

The exiled Ali never fought, so there is no basis in saying some upstart wouldn't have figured out the limitations in his game. Everyone is beatable, at every stage of their career. That whole thread of arguementation is a non-starter.

I don't hate Liston; I do rather despise his characterization by the media. He was a hell of a fighter, who I enjoy rewatching.
Yeah, i questioned you on this ages ago. Every time Liston came up you bagged the shit out of the guy lol. I thought there must have been something personal going on.

Quote:
Foreman was rediculously over-protected. Even the match-making vs. Ali was considered a pre-ordained annihilation. Look at his record pre-Frazier, simply paddycake tomato cans. What were they hiding?
At the end of the day Foreman had to go thru Frazier and he did that with ridiculous ease. Frazier was top dog. He then murdered the highly rated Norton. I don't believe they were hiding things, if anything perhaps they were cruising easy to guarantee he got his money and shot. Cooney was the same. Safety first (IF it was even that) need not be considered protecting i think.

Quote:
You will really have to go to great lengths to prove Norton was some sort of great fighter. He was strong and persistent- with gaping easily ,exploitable flaws- and that is it. If you carried a decent punch, and believed in it as part of your strategy, you had a good chance against him.
Can't argue with that, and i'd never call him great, but truth is he's right on the next rung IMO. A damn fine fighter.
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Old 07-29-2007, 07:03 AM   #208
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Oh dear
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Old 07-29-2007, 09:17 AM   #209
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

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Oh dear
I'd put this thread in the "will be explosive" category, tho it's been pretty tame really

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Old 07-29-2007, 10:51 AM   #210
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Right here and now?
****ing Wlad Klitschko, for ****s sake.


Every time a Klitschko reels off a few wins after getting stopped he automaticly enters ATG discussion.
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