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Old 07-30-2007, 06:20 AM   #241
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

I think marciano is a very unusual to rank as he had very good attributes of power,stamina,heart,was probably very awkward to fight and beat all the men put in front of him....However his opposition cannot be said to be stellar/prime or against big men so his resume is lacking and how he would do against the big atg heavies is somewhat unknown....Did he ever beat a big world class heavyweight contendor? Im talking 6 ft 3 225 and athletic? Its hard to say as he seemed an extremely determined and awkward guy and sometimes that can make all the difference....Any modern heavy that fought marciano would be fighting a style that they probably would never have faced before. Marciano could also have added a bit more functional weight with some weight training/advanced nutrition.....If frazier can be successful at 5ft 11 and 205 then maybe marciano can,rocky was more two fisted than frazier....
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Old 07-30-2007, 08:20 AM   #242
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enquirer
I think marciano is a very unusual to rank as he had very good attributes of power,stamina,heart,was probably very awkward to fight and beat all the men put in front of him....However his opposition cannot be said to be stellar/prime or against big men so his resume is lacking and how he would do against the big atg heavies is somewhat unknown....Did he ever beat a big world class heavyweight contendor? Im talking 6 ft 3 225 and athletic? Its hard to say as he seemed an extremely determined and awkward guy and sometimes that can make all the difference....Any modern heavy that fought marciano would be fighting a style that they probably would never have faced before. Marciano could also have added a bit more functional weight with some weight training/advanced nutrition.....If frazier can be successful at 5ft 11 and 205 then maybe marciano can,rocky was more two fisted than frazier....
Your description, 6' 3" and 225 lbs and very athletic--I would point out that no one at all defeated anyone who really fits this bill prior to the 1970's. The only one who might come close to such a discription is Jeffries, and only Johnson beat him when he was washed up. This amounts to saying that modern heavys have grown larger and so we should dismiss all old-timers. There is not much point in studying the history of the sport then.
Joe Louis, whom Marciano did defeat as an old man, was, in my judgement, the best big heavy (over 200 lbs) prior to Ali.
By the way, why not dismiss Ali by pointing out he never defeated anyone at least 6' 5" and over 240 lbs at all, let alone someone very athletic, such as Lewis or Wlad Klitschko?
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Old 07-30-2007, 12:15 PM   #243
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Ok,i will clarify my point a little more. Even 6ft 3 and 210 of athletic muscle would be fine...
Ali did beat athletic guys of this range such as terrell,williams,foreman etc....When we get to 6 ft 5 and 240 there arent that many athletic guys,maybe lewis,bowe and a few others....I wouldnt even mind if we had seen marciano against a 6ft plus 210 powerhouse like liston....My point being its hard to tell if the rock could hang with these types of athletic big guys....Maybe some knowledgable posters could discuss the size and athleticism of marcianos opponents?
Finally,if you say that heavies pre 70s did not defeat athletic guys of this size than i will say that does make comparison somewhat hard between eras,it doesnt mean i am dismissing old timers,the films can show us who could box well,with ali he was big and athletic enough to beat bigger guys than himself,and i think this is quite obvious and proven....
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Old 07-30-2007, 03:19 PM   #244
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

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Originally Posted by Lostmykeys
For me I would have to say Jack Johnson.

All film I have seen of him has been terrible, lacked offense and defense consisted of holding excessively.

His competition wasn't great, fighting middleweights. And he had many losses near the end of his career.

Despite this i've seen people rate him as high as third on top HW lists.
I dont think its only your keys you lost.
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Old 07-30-2007, 05:20 PM   #245
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

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Originally Posted by Lostmykeys
For me I would have to say Jack Johnson.

All film I have seen of him has been terrible, lacked offense and defense consisted of holding excessively.

His competition wasn't great, fighting middleweights. And he had many losses near the end of his career.

Despite this i've seen people rate him as high as third on top HW lists.
Most over rated of all time? Simple: Ali
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Old 07-30-2007, 06:11 PM   #246
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

1 Lennox Lewis
2 Lennox Lewis
3 Lennox Lewis
4 Lennox Lewis
5 Lennox Lewis
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Old 07-30-2007, 06:14 PM   #247
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Overated? Marciano, his lack of top class opponents isn't his fault but its still a fact.
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Old 07-30-2007, 06:40 PM   #248
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

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Originally Posted by janitor
I think that you are making the same mistake that a lot of Rockys opponents made.

They said before they fought him that he was a neanderthal and predictable.

After they fought him they were all saying that he feinted them into knots and that they could never time his punches.

If you read what guys like Moore, Charles and Walcott said then go back and look at the film then you start to see it.
look at marciano's footwork when he knocked out walcott, sweet. when he stopped lastarza he hit him with a left then ducked, adjusted his feet and put him through the ropes with a right. beautiful.

he also could make himself a smaller target and had very good upper body movement although i think it wasn't quite as good at the end due to his back.
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Old 07-30-2007, 06:47 PM   #249
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

how is Jack Dempsey not being discussed? he is CLEARLY the most overrated heavy champ....he was popular, but did little to earn that popularity.
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Old 07-30-2007, 10:24 PM   #250
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

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Originally Posted by Illmatic
how is Jack Dempsey not being discussed? he is CLEARLY the most overrated heavy champ....he was popular, but did little to earn that popularity.
I mentioned him earlier. I also mentioned Jack Johnson and Ali. If I were to pick between the three, it would have to be Johnson. Unless you have one of those Marciano fanatics around.
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:31 AM   #251
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

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Originally Posted by GazOC
Overated? Marciano, his lack of top class opponents isn't his fault but its still a fact.
Seems a bit harsh.

He beat two fighters generaly regarded as top 20 all time heavyweights in Walcott and Charles.

Heb eat two pound for pound greats in Charles and Moore.

Louis might have been old but he would probably still have beaten anybody else outside Walcott and Charles at this point in time.

How many heavyweights can boast a similar level of competition?
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:42 AM   #252
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illmatic
how is Jack Dempsey not being discussed? he is CLEARLY the most overrated heavy champ....he was popular, but did little to earn that popularity.
I think that he is generaly under rated.

Especialy head to head.
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Old 07-31-2007, 05:52 AM   #253
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

This thread is crap.

I say that as one of those nominated by ESB as top boxing analayst.

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Old 07-31-2007, 11:39 AM   #254
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice
I know i will get ripped apart for this but it would have to be holyfield. I cannot think of any significant heavyweight that he stopped or ko'd other than tyson. he gets waaaaaayyy to much credit for his "so called wars". yes he did have classics with bowe, but what some of you forget is that he lost badly twice. He couldn't stop an old Holmes, an old foreman, lost against a lightheavyweight Michael Moorer (oh yeah he was a lightheavyweight ). he was struggled against cooper, chyz, and mercer. He was inconsistant. Note! that all of these fights that i listed were in his so called prime as a heavyweight. I would bring up his fights with Lewis ETC. but the first things the supporters will say is "he was past his prime" so i won't even bother. Bottom Line what Holyfield gets away with other fighters are PENALIZED for. So he is the most Overrated. Now i will not even go into Steroid allegations
Completley agree.
If it wasn't for the Tyson fight no one would even be talking about him in terms of the heavyweights.
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Old 07-31-2007, 11:41 AM   #255
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Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Duke
If it wasn't for the Tyson fight no one would even be talking about him in terms of the heavyweights.
Given that he was a four times belt holder who fought absolutley everyone he was supposed to without ducking, that seems unlikley.
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