Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-03-2007, 08:48 AM   #106
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,632
vCash: 238
Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

You are right Dueodenum.

I've never seen that fight with Isaac by the way, was it a flash knockdown or was he genuinly hurt?
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-03-2007, 08:49 AM   #107
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,632
vCash: 238
Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
Lewis should have rematched Tua? On what grounds, because it wasn't quite a shut out.
That call can have only been made by an insomniac.


Good performance by Lewis, excellent in fact.... but a what a bore that fight was.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 09:03 AM   #108
UpWithEvil
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 339
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Quote:
There's no bones to make about it. I am a die-hard, 15 round, anti- steroid snob, who feels modern boxing has deteriorated dreadfully as a result of the mandated shorter distance, and will always hold the view that never having gone 15 rounds irrevocably diminishes the boxers who have competed during this era of a dying sport.
I agree with these sentiments without reservation.
UpWithEvil is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 11:31 AM   #109
Duodenum
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,802
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
You are right Dueodenum.
Ahhh, yes. I just knew there were others on this board who agreed with me that my posts suck!
Quote:
I've never seen that fight with Isaac by the way, was it a flash knockdown or was he genuinly hurt?
That's a good question Chris. I've never seen it either, but have always assumed it was just a flash knockdown, though that may not be the case. I understand that it was a right hand which Isaac dropped Larry with. (Holmes certainly seems to have been a sucker for those.)
Duodenum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 11:37 AM   #110
Doppleganger
Il Genio
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 764
vCash: 800
Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UpWithEvil
I agree with these sentiments without reservation.
As do I.
Doppleganger is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 05:39 PM   #111
Zakman
ESB's Chinchecker
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Ivory Tower
Posts: 12,966
vCash: 588
Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
.. so there you have it. The only one to tie Lewis in number of career knockdowns is Rocky Marciano. Every other single heavyweight champion in history has been on the canvas more often than Lewis, and what's more, Lewis faced more punchers than every one of them with the exception of Ali and maybe Walcott.
Guy, I admire your statistical work there, in fact I'm gonna save it for my records. Problem is though, you ignore the QUALITY of opposition and concentrate solely on QUANTITY. Of course, that benefits your side of the argument.

But however you QUANTIFY it, Lewis is the only top level ATG to get laid out early twice by guys of the low QUALITY of McCall and Rahman when he was champ. The ONLY one. And that means he just can't be as highly rated as some of you guys think. It's too big a deficiency, however many excuses or marginally relevant stats you conjure up.
Zakman is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 06:24 PM   #112
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Muhammad Ali.
GOAT doesn't get starched by Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper, and doesn't get a boxing lesson from Doug Jones, Ron Lyle, Jimmy Young, Ken Norton three times in a row, and by 7-0-1 Leon Spinks.
A boxing lesson from Lyle?. Ali was fooling around with Lyle for for the first 5 rounds of the fight. He came out early behind a peeek a booo high guard coming forward throwing nothing. Once Ali got on his toes and circled, it was Lyle recieving a boxing lesson. Ali treated a top heavyweight like a sparring partner. Watch the 11th round and you will see Lyle getting spanked.

The GOAT was starched from Banks and Cooper. It doesn't harm his legacy in the slightest because he hit the canvas against them both. It actually helps his legacy more than anything, as he got up to win, and inside the distance for that matter.
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 06:54 PM   #113
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,632
vCash: 238
Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakman
Guy, I admire your statistical work there, in fact I'm gonna save it for my records. Problem is though, you ignore the QUALITY of opposition and concentrate solely on QUANTITY. Of course, that benefits your side of the argument.
If you can name champions outside of Ali and Walcott who faced a larger amount of quality punchers then i will conceed my point.

One thing you must not forget is that punchers always look bad in defeat.
Foreman looked like shit against Ali, Liston looked like shit against Ali, Tyson looked like shit against anyone who beat him, Peter looked like shit against Wlad, etc etc.
But the thing is that they have the unique property that they can turn looking shit for an entire fight around with a single punch. Brewster looked like shit untill he landed a few punches and knocked Krasiniq out. But when they don't land that punch, it's easy to dismiss them as limited fighters or whatever. But that doesn't make them any less dangerous. Julian Jackson looked like an amatuer and if you didn't know him, you'd wonder why he even was in the same ring with Terry Norris. Norris easily outlanded him untill Jackson landed that one shot and it was all over.
Don't underestimate punchers.


By the way, i knew a chin-freak like you would appreciate that knockdown list.

Quote:
But however you QUANTIFY it, Lewis is the only top level ATG to get laid out early twice by guys of the low QUALITY of McCall and Rahman when he was champ. The ONLY one. And that means he just can't be as highly rated as some of you guys think. It's too big a deficiency, however many excuses or marginally relevant stats you conjure up.
True, but you can make a distinction like that for every fighter. Ali was nearly knocked out by an unranked cruiserweight and maybe saved by the bell. Holmes ducked every rematch and a lot of dangerous fights. Tyson lacked the true heart in some fights. Holyfield losts to fighters whose only reason they are good is because Holyfield lost to them. Etc, etc.

How you weigh these arguments differs per person of course, but Lewis has shown to be able to take a punch tons of times and against more punchers than almost anyone else too. Furthermore, one of his knockoutlosses came at the age of 35 and the other was a rather quick stoppage. So i can forgive him for those two nights.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 08:55 PM   #114
Doppleganger
Il Genio
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Scotland, UK
Posts: 764
vCash: 800
Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakman
But however you QUANTIFY it, Lewis is the only top level ATG to get laid out early twice by guys of the low QUALITY of McCall and Rahman when he was champ. The ONLY one. And that means he just can't be as highly rated as some of you guys think. It's too big a deficiency, however many excuses or marginally relevant stats you conjure up.
That fact that this often repeated mantra of yours is the only thing you can really come up with to detract from Lewis says a great deal IMO. Yes, it's a black mark on Lewis that he allowed himself to be taken out in such a manner. Make no mistake though it was more Lewis losing than McCall or Rahman winning. Isn't that a mark of a truly great fighter that controls the outcome of a fight even in defeat? And he didn't get a fair chance to see if he could continue against McCall. If Lewis had never rematched both fighters, or had lost again or even looked shaky in winning, I'd concede to your point entirely. But he didn't. He dominated both rematches, especially in the case of Rahman. Isn't a fighter allowed to have a couple of off-nights in a 14 year career? Obviously not according to you.
Doppleganger is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 09:03 PM   #115
RockyJim
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,351
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Sports Illustrated gave the title"Most Overrated" to Ali a few years back...they also called Marciano the "Most Underated" heavy of all time!
RockyJim is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 09:13 PM   #116
Bad_Intentions
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Miami FL, USA
Posts: 3,688
vCash: 153
Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Overrated as most talked about?. or overrated as everything...

either way, it's ALI.
Bad_Intentions is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 10:09 PM   #117
cross_trainer
Bergeron Avatar Club
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,685
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakman
Guy, I admire your statistical work there, in fact I'm gonna save it for my records. Problem is though, you ignore the QUALITY of opposition and concentrate solely on QUANTITY. Of course, that benefits your side of the argument.

But however you QUANTIFY it, Lewis is the only top level ATG to get laid out early twice by guys of the low QUALITY of McCall and Rahman when he was champ. The ONLY one. And that means he just can't be as highly rated as some of you guys think. It's too big a deficiency, however many excuses or marginally relevant stats you conjure up.
Both were top contenders of their era--hardly a qualitative leap from the guys who knocked down/out other ATG fighters. Where are you getting the impression that McCall and Rahman were substandard, inferior fighters?
cross_trainer is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 11:20 PM   #118
Zakman
ESB's Chinchecker
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Ivory Tower
Posts: 12,966
vCash: 588
Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
But when they don't land that punch, it's easy to dismiss them as limited fighters or whatever. But that doesn't make them any less dangerous. J
Don't underestimate punchers.

By the way, i knew a chin-freak like you would appreciate that knockdown list.
Oh believe me, I don't underestimate punchers - they are my favorite type of fighter. The problem here, however, is that NEITHER McCall or Rahman has reps as particularly big punchers UNTIL they starched Lewis. What were McCall's best pre- Lewis KOs - laying out glass jawed guys like Bruce Seldon or Oleg Maskaev? Rahman?? Jeez, his biggest KO was probably Corrie Sanders, who was starched in a couple of rounds by Tony Tubbs brother, who was no more of a hitter than Tony!!

Bottom line is that NOONE would even consider McCall or Rahman "big punchers" if they hadn't starched Lewis. Because they're not. And Rahman has probably the worst chin of a rated HW this side of Herbie Hide. Without the Lewis KO, he's be known as just another contender with a shitty chin. McCall would have his well deserved Chuvalo like rep, but that's about it. These guys just ain't that good.
Zakman is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 11:28 PM   #119
NickHudson
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 447
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

"Lewis controlled the outcome of Rahman I and McCall I even in defeat. The mark of a great fighter."

Cripes, this sounds like a lot of philosophical mumbo jumbo to me.

Ive heard on this forum recently that 2000-2002 was Lewis's golden 3 year spell. So you can make that ione off-night in a 3 year period. And no, that is not allowed for ATG status, unless there are a different set of rules for Lennox than the other 9 warriors that make it in the HW TOP10.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
That fact that this often repeated mantra of yours is the only thing you can really come up with to detract from Lewis says a great deal IMO. Yes, it's a black mark on Lewis that he allowed himself to be taken out in such a manner. Make no mistake though it was more Lewis losing than McCall or Rahman winning. Isn't that a mark of a truly great fighter that controls the outcome of a fight even in defeat? And he didn't get a fair chance to see if he could continue against McCall. If Lewis had never rematched both fighters, or had lost again or even looked shaky in winning, I'd concede to your point entirely. But he didn't. He dominated both rematches, especially in the case of Rahman. Isn't a fighter allowed to have a couple of off-nights in a 14 year career? Obviously not according to you.
NickHudson is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2007, 12:44 AM   #120
Zakman
ESB's Chinchecker
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Ivory Tower
Posts: 12,966
vCash: 588
Default Re: Most overrated HW of all time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickHudson
Cripes, this sounds like a lot of philosophical mumbo jumbo to me.
Mumbo jumbo, excuses and spin are the stock in trade of the Lewis overrating brigade. And to think the Lewis Camp started all this crap themselves with their silly and disingenous "Chicken Bowe" campaign. And then they tried the same shit on Holyfield and Tyson. Gee, those guys all managed to fight each other, except for the external circumstances that prevented Tyson-Bowe. Hell, Holyfiled fought ALL of them, and he's the only one to do it. One of the MANY reasons why he's the best HW since Holmes.
Zakman is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013