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Old 05-28-2011, 02:11 PM   #31
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Default Re: Why was Muhammad Ali so mean to Joe Frazier?

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Originally Posted by johnmaff36 View Post
I never seen Ali taunt an opponent on the canvas EVER, unless you wanna call the 2nd Liston fight taunting. Any examples of this please as i genuinely cant recall him ever doing it.
He stood over his opponents with his arms aloft, looking down on them, sometimes refusing to go to the corner. Not just Liston .... Bonavena comes to mind, Folley too.
Maybe not taunting, but gloating perhaps.
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:18 PM   #32
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Default Re: Why was Muhammad Ali so mean to Joe Frazier?

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Actually,Frazier was referring to Ali as Clay as early as 1967. Before Muhammad had started verbally on Joe. Maybe this was at the back of Ali's mind.
Frazier`s take on this was that Ali wasn`t a true lover of all his brothers, but his Muslim brothers only. Frazier said that Ali was only into the ones choosing islam. Where as Frazier`s religion says that all are loved as equals. As much as I love Ali, he was downright cruel with Frazier. Even though it would be gracious for Frazier to forgive him, I understand why he doesn`t...
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:19 PM   #33
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Default Re: Why was Muhammad Ali so mean to Joe Frazier?

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He stood over his opponents with his arms aloft, looking down on them, sometimes refusing to go to the corner. Not just Liston .... Bonavena comes to mind, Folley too.
Maybe not taunting, but gloating perhaps.
Cleveland Williams, and lets not forget his winding his arm up against a defenseless Richard Dunn...
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:23 PM   #34
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Default Re: Why was Muhammad Ali so mean to Joe Frazier?

Hard to believe that Bryant Gumbel was quotes as saying `Is Joe Frazier ` white champ in black skin ` ? Joe Frazier came from a humble,very hard background. And was a tough and proud man. Who tried his best to do right by his family and his boxing fans...
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:25 PM   #35
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Default Re: Why was Muhammad Ali so mean to Joe Frazier?

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Cleveland Williams, and lets not forget his winding his arm up against a defenseless Richard Dunn...

Yep. That's got to be classed as taunting !

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ykub6DUDYME[/ame]

4:39
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Old 05-29-2011, 04:35 AM   #36
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Default Re: Why was Muhammad Ali so mean to Joe Frazier?

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He stood over his opponents with his arms aloft, looking down on them, sometimes refusing to go to the corner. Not just Liston .... Bonavena comes to mind, Folley too.
Maybe not taunting, but gloating perhaps.
Many fighters,before and after Ali have done that.
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Old 05-29-2011, 04:49 AM   #37
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Default Re: Why was Muhammad Ali so mean to Joe Frazier?

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Many fighters,before and after Ali have done that.
Yes, I'm sure you can name some.

burt mentioned he never saw Joe Louis, Ray Robinson and Alexis Arguello taunting ..... did they ever do that ?
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Old 05-29-2011, 05:08 AM   #38
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Default Re: Why was Muhammad Ali so mean to Joe Frazier?

Perhaps it was because he didn't like black people calling him Clay, he was generally ok with white people doing this of course (Angelo Dundee, Cooper, London).
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Old 05-29-2011, 05:09 AM   #39
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Default Re: Why was Muhammad Ali so mean to Joe Frazier?

Part of his in ring demeanour, and it worked. He succeeded at getting many a great fighter riled out of himself, and took them apart when they got reckless.

Not very classy? Sure.

Damn effective? Undeniably.
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Old 05-29-2011, 05:22 AM   #40
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Default Re: Why was Muhammad Ali so mean to Joe Frazier?

"I'm so mean I make medicine sick" ...... that might explain it too !
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Old 05-29-2011, 05:26 AM   #41
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Default Re: Why was Muhammad Ali so mean to Joe Frazier?

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Originally Posted by Waynegrade View Post
Hard to believe that Bryant Gumbel was quotes as saying `Is Joe Frazier ` white champ in black skin ` ? Joe Frazier came from a humble,very hard background. And was a tough and proud man. Who tried his best to do right by his family and his boxing fans...
Not a nice thing to say that, and Boxing Illustrated ran with it as their cover story.
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Old 05-29-2011, 07:13 AM   #42
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Default Re: Why was Muhammad Ali so mean to Joe Frazier?

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
He stood over his opponents with his arms aloft, looking down on them, sometimes refusing to go to the corner. Not just Liston .... Bonavena comes to mind, Folley too.
Maybe not taunting, but gloating perhaps.
Nit-picking. Many many fighters have done the same. And if you cant see that the Dunne arm-swinging was playing to the crowd then i just dont know. Would you say Hopkins press-ups was taunting Pascal or playing to the crowd?

As for the folley arm-raising. Do you genuinely think of that as taunting? I know he had a lot of respect for Zora, making it his business to go to his son after the fight and tell him how great his father was.

Honestly, and with respect, not just to you but others too, i think no matter whats gets said on these forums some people just dont like Ali and nothing will ever change their minds. And thats cool, we need a diversity in opinions, but where one sees celebrating, others see gloating. Where one sees a great performance, another will see over-the-hill opponent. Where one sees a victory in a close fight, another cries robbery.
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Old 05-29-2011, 07:22 AM   #43
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Default Re: Why was Muhammad Ali so mean to Joe Frazier?

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Originally Posted by johnmaff36 View Post
Nit-picking. Many many fighters have done the same. And if you cant see that the Dunne arm-swinging was playing to the crowd then i just dont know.
I'm not nit-picking, I was just trying to help with your question. Maybe burt has a better answer.



Richard Dunn was dazed and beaten up and the fight was stopped, so Ali's playing to the crowd can certainly be construed as taunting or unnecessary intimidation.

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Would you say Hopkins press-ups was taunting Pascal or playing to the crowd?
Pascal wasn't in a helpless state, beaten up and knocked out.
Ali's routine against Dunn was funny, IMO, but could certainly be seen as "let me hit him one more time" type gesture.

We all know Ali did taunt some opponents anyway. So it's nothing worth arguing about.
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Old 05-29-2011, 07:31 AM   #44
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Default Re: Why was Muhammad Ali so mean to Joe Frazier?

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As for the folley arm-raising. Do you genuinely think of that as taunting?
No, I already said I don't think it's quite taunting, but it IS gloating over a fallen opponent. (Not just the arm raising, the standing over and looking down at the fallen man)
It's an unnecessary statement of superiority and underlines the subjugation of the opponent. I have no problem with it. I'm just saying.


Quote:
Honestly, and with respect, not just to you but others too, i think no matter whats gets said on these forums some people just dont like Ali and nothing will ever change their minds. And thats cool, we need a diversity in opinions, but where one sees celebrating, others see gloating. Where one sees a great performance, another will see over-the-hill opponent. Where one sees a victory in a close fight, another cries robbery
I have no problem with his celebrating/gloating.
I'm just giving my interpretation on what I see.
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Old 05-29-2011, 07:52 AM   #45
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Default Re: Why was Muhammad Ali so mean to Joe Frazier?

What he did with Frazier went way beyong taunting,and was not about hyping the fight.
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