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Old 05-31-2011, 11:15 PM   #16
bald_head_slick
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Default Re: Anaerobic Training & Roadwork

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Originally Posted by BladeJrs View Post
Hmm, never heard about this before. What exactly is the purpose?
It is a base and counteracts the acid produced an any strenuous activity. It can be aerobic or anaerobic. It will increase capacity. Again though, not all can take its effects on the stomach so it should be eased into.

Not that I don't want to explain, but I think you should Google it so you see I am not blowing smoke up your arse.

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Originally Posted by BladeJrs View Post
Well this I wouldn't recommend, as I mentioned in that other guys thread last month that low sodium/high water lead to muscle breakdown and leakage for me.

edit: oops, unless you meant cut back on sodium if you're gonna take the baking soda.
I completely agree and your edit hit the nail on the head. Your sweat is pure salt! I honestly would not recommend doing it unless you are active CONSECUTIVE days, on a decent diet (lotsa water), and it is summer time or you are a profuse sweater.

I could not believe the lack of burn during/after the workout. I worked HARD, but felt great. Still, the salt content of the sweat is enough to make it a bit concerning regardless of the results. Regular roadwork should remedy that though.
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Old 05-31-2011, 11:27 PM   #17
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Default Re: Anaerobic Training & Roadwork

Interesting, might have to try this for my next bag workout.
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Old 06-01-2011, 02:58 AM   #18
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Default Re: Anaerobic Training & Roadwork

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Originally Posted by bald_head_slick View Post
To double down, drink a teaspoon of baking soda with as much water as it takes to go down before a workout. Warning, it is BRUTAL (tasting), but if you are going to put in work? It will help you take your workout to the next level. Start slowly working up your tolerance, taste and stomach.

Also try to cut back on any and all sodium if possible and pound water afterward.
I haven't heard of this either. I will look into it and give it a go sometime though. At the very least it will make me feel like a bit of a badass.
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Old 06-01-2011, 10:54 AM   #19
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Default Re: Anaerobic Training & Roadwork

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Originally Posted by vonLPC View Post
No problem JabCross,

Here is what I've got:

Would this sort of interval running work my anaerobic or aerobic fitness?
It would work the aerobic system. The anaerobic energy system has very little capacity to improve.

What are some good roadwork exercises to improve my anaerobic fitness? Hill sprints, intervals. NOTHING over 12-15 seconds. You must do these all out.


How often should I integrate anaerobic conditioning into my roadwork?
Hill sprints, intervals(full intensity) of 10-12 seconds with complete recovery, heart rate under 120bpm. Maybe 10-15 intervals.

Please know that I mean this in no way to be disrespectful as it is difficult to decipher through an internet post. In saying that, after reading your thread, I think you may not have a full understanding of what are the differences and capacities of these two systems.

I wrote a long thread called aerobic energy system. Type it into this search engine. I tried to write it as "user friendly" as possible. It should hopefully help you to have a better understanding on your questions.

Hmmm, what do you think of the tabata method? I may have gotten it wrong but their research contradicts yours.

Quote:
Tabata Training: Can 4 Minutes Of Exercise Be Enough For Fat Burning?

The basis of Tabata Training is 4 minutes of intense interval training/circuit training. What you are doing is taking an exercise we'll use sprints as an example here.

Sprint as hard as you can for 20 seconds
Walk for 10 seconds
Repeat 7 more times for a total of 8 sets.
So what you have is a total of 4 minutes of workout time.

Tabata Training can be done with a number of different exercises the idea is to use an exercise that gets the whole body involved or at least the major muscle groups.Tabata Training can be done with Barbells, Dumbells, Kettlebells or just Bodyweight exercises. I'll give you some other exercises and routines to try in a minute but first let me give you some background and how Tabatas work.

Tabata Training was developed by Izumi Tabata (imagine that) at the National Institute of Fitness and Sports in Tokyo, Japan. They did a study on comparing the effects of moderate intensity endurance(aerobics) and high endurance intermittent training(tabata training intervals) on VO2 max and anerobic capacity.

To cut to the results of the study: the moderate intensity group training program produced a significant increase in VO2 max of about 10%, but had no effect on anaerobic capacity. The high intensity group improved their VO2 max by about 14% while anaerobic capacity improved by 28%. The study was done over a six week period. Both groups working out 5 days per week.
The reason I say it contradicts is because you stated you needed full recovery after each sprint, whereas this method gives you 10seconds rest, not nearly enough for full recovery yet showed 28% improvement in anaerobic capacity. Also I believe this exercise keeps the heart rate very high for 4min...which energy system will that be targeting?


Also just correct me on my general information I got please:

Vo2 Max = Aerobic system? So LSD will improve this and the benefits are it can supply more oxygen to the body thus improving recovery overall, including recovery from anaerobic exercise?

Lactate threshold - Confused a bit as to whether this refers to blood lactate or lactic acid but the basics I got is this is the rate at which lactate clearance can no longer keep up with lactate production? This is relative to Vo2 max so even though Vo2 max may occur at 24km/ph, if lactate threshold is at 50% of Vo2 max that athlete may only perform at about 12km/ph whereas someone with 60% threshold may go up to 14km/ph? - How is this energy system improved?

Anaerobic Threshold - Is that the same as lactate threshold? You described it as maximum power output your aerobic system can use. I thought the 2 were completely different systems but obviously anaerobic system relies on the aerobic? In that case, would simply improving your aerobic system improve your anaerobic system too?

Muscle Endurance - Just a case of targeting muscle fibers type 1 & 2? If I was to train type 1, you mentioned it can be done with 15-20 reps with about 50 seconds rest. I imagine that's so my arms does not tire throughout the round. Training type 2 would be more explosive exercises, this allows maintenance of maximum power. Surely though, if your arms arent tired because you trained type 1 very well, you will be able to maintain maximum power anyways right? Or is training type 2 simply to improve maximum power/speed and type 1 will help maintain that?

Sorry if my questions seem confusing.

Thanks.

Edit: At the moment my training consists of:

LSD 1-2 times a week. - Vo2 Max?

4 different bodyweight exercises in tabata format 3 times a week. So Maybe pushups for 4min, rest to full recovery, then squats for 4min etc. - AT + Vo2 Max + Muscle fiber type 1/2 training?

Sprints twice a week - Sprint 100m, jog back 100m and sprint back 100m for 5 reps. 5 sets, rest to full recovery between sets. -AT?

Strength Weights training 4 times a week - Overall strength.

Treadmill sprints - 2min 17km/ph, 1min jog for 4 reps. - Anaerobic + Aerobic?
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Old 06-01-2011, 06:51 PM   #20
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Default Re: Anaerobic Training & Roadwork

Disclaimer: I am not a doctor and before trying any supplementation you should first consult a physician!

For all of you fellas wondering about the baking soda. Some resources:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

More info on actual dosing:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

I have tried it and it worked. Only issue was the insane saltiness of my sweat. It was a bit scary thinking about my internal sodium content. I would say drink INSANE amounts of water pre/post-workout and do not do this if you aren't sweating up a ton. It worked for me, but not sure how far I would take this without SERIOUSLY monitoring my sodium levels.
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Old 06-01-2011, 11:47 PM   #21
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Default Re: Anaerobic Training & Roadwork

Dangerosity,

Thanks for actually reading what I wrote. It's late so this will probably be not well thought out but I will try.

The reason that I stated that one needed full recovery was that the article was on the aerobic energy system. Tabata intervals would put your heart rate above anaerobic threshold. Tabatas are a good method, but the research I read states that the improvements become stagnate after several weeks. Also, the method that I stated would not be considered "moderate" aerobic activity.

The LSD method will improve eccentric cardiac hypertrophy, simply meaning that the heart pumps out more blood with each beat. The result is a lower resting heart rate, lower working heart rates, better ability to bring heart rate down during a rest period(1 minute break in boxing). Simply put, with this method more oxygen will get to the muscles.

Concentric hypertrophy which is done by any exercise which stimulate heart rate maximally will help to train the heart to not fatigue at higher heart rates and is capable of delivering more oxygen. This would be why tabata intervals had the improvements in anaerobic capacity. However, I have read studies that have shown that improvements using the tabata method practically stop after several weeks. Anyone who has done them knows how taxing they are. They should be used sparingly.

It is important to stimulate the heart both ways.

I will try to answer your questions:

Don't narrow in on LSD work, but the stronger one's aerobic system is, the better their recovery from anaerobic use, such as a knockout punch, kick, takedown, tackle, leap, etc.

Most people use the term lactate and anaerobic threshold interchangeably.

Tabata intervals are done with an activity that gets the heart rate at maximal levels of intensity. Pushups are not it. sprinting is an example of a good tabata activity.

The anaerobic energy system has very little room to improve.

Hopefully this makes sense.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:42 AM   #22
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Default Re: Anaerobic Training & Roadwork

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Originally Posted by vonLPC View Post
Dangerosity,

Thanks for actually reading what I wrote. It's late so this will probably be not well thought out but I will try.

The reason that I stated that one needed full recovery was that the article was on the aerobic energy system. Tabata intervals would put your heart rate above anaerobic threshold. Tabatas are a good method, but the research I read states that the improvements become stagnate after several weeks. Also, the method that I stated would not be considered "moderate" aerobic activity.

The LSD method will improve eccentric cardiac hypertrophy, simply meaning that the heart pumps out more blood with each beat. The result is a lower resting heart rate, lower working heart rates, better ability to bring heart rate down during a rest period(1 minute break in boxing). Simply put, with this method more oxygen will get to the muscles.

Concentric hypertrophy which is done by any exercise which stimulate heart rate maximally will help to train the heart to not fatigue at higher heart rates and is capable of delivering more oxygen. This would be why tabata intervals had the improvements in anaerobic capacity. However, I have read studies that have shown that improvements using the tabata method practically stop after several weeks. Anyone who has done them knows how taxing they are. They should be used sparingly.

It is important to stimulate the heart both ways.

I will try to answer your questions:

Don't narrow in on LSD work, but the stronger one's aerobic system is, the better their recovery from anaerobic use, such as a knockout punch, kick, takedown, tackle, leap, etc.

Most people use the term lactate and anaerobic threshold interchangeably.

Tabata intervals are done with an activity that gets the heart rate at maximal levels of intensity. Pushups are not it. sprinting is an example of a good tabata activity.

The anaerobic energy system has very little room to improve.

Hopefully this makes sense.

Hey, Thanks for replying, just a couple more questions if you dont mind:

Quote:
The reason that I stated that one needed full recovery was that the article was on the aerobic energy system. Tabata intervals would put your heart rate above anaerobic threshold.
I'm not sure what you mean, the question was:
Quote:

How often should I integrate anaerobic conditioning into my roadwork?
Hill sprints, intervals(full intensity) of 10-12 seconds with complete recovery, heart rate under 120bpm. Maybe 10-15 intervals.
You answered that you needed full recovery per interval to target the anaerobic system, yet stated above that tabata works without the recovery as it puts the heart rate above anaerobic threshold?


Quote:
The anaerobic energy system has very little room to improve.
You mentioned concentric hypertophy, I've had my heart rate measured during and after those 2min interval treadmill sprints and it was at around 80-90% max which would surely be anaerobic threshold. What do you mean by very little room to improve, will this not improve my anaerobic system then?

Doesn't concentric hypertophy again contradict your statement on needing full recovery per 12-15sec maximal output? As exercises which last 2min can push the heart rate to 80-90%, you said this would train the heart to not fatigue at higher heart rate thus improving anaerobic system?

Thanks.
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:19 AM   #23
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Default Re: Anaerobic Training & Roadwork

Re: little room for anaerobic improvement:

They are being very specific in their statement. What they mean is that the anaerobic energy system itself has little capacity to improve with training. What DOES have the capacity to improve, however, is the body's ability to clear lactic acid from the muscles (recall that lactic acid hinders muscle movement), the level of intensity at which the body turns to anaerobic energy, and the time it takes for oxygen levels to recover.

For the fighter, this means that systematically, and strategically, pushing your body beyond the anaerobic threshold will:
- allow to to work harder for longer, before your muscles are forced to slow down by acid build up
- allow you to recover faster, and more completely, from an anerobic interval
- allow you to push to high intensity repeatly, without much erosion of performance.


So it is true that you can't specifically improve your body's anaerobic energy system (much). But you CAN improve your body's ability to repeatedly push to the anaerobic threshold.
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:19 AM   #24
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Default Re: Anaerobic Training & Roadwork

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Originally Posted by Dish View Post
Re: little room for anaerobic improvement:

They are being very specific in their statement. What they mean is that the anaerobic energy system itself has little capacity to improve with training. What DOES have the capacity to improve, however, is the body's ability to clear lactic acid from the muscles (recall that lactic acid hinders muscle movement), the level of intensity at which the body turns to anaerobic energy, and the time it takes for oxygen levels to recover.

For the fighter, this means that systematically, and strategically, pushing your body beyond the anaerobic threshold will:
- allow to to work harder for longer, before your muscles are forced to slow down by acid build up
- allow you to recover faster, and more completely, from an anerobic interval
- allow you to push to high intensity repeatly, without much erosion of performance.


So it is true that you can't specifically improve your body's anaerobic energy system (much). But you CAN improve your body's ability to repeatedly push to the anaerobic threshold.
Ah, that makes a lot of sense now. So a better lactic tolerance or ability to clear lactic combined with a good aerobic system for overall recover = winning fitness formula?

In that sense, would it be pretty much worthless training the actual anaerobic system but rather just training lactic acid clearance so that you may enter your anaerobic threshold more frequently?
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Old 06-02-2011, 01:06 PM   #25
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Default Re: Anaerobic Training & Roadwork

Dish,

Thanks for translating my 12 am rant. This is what I was trying to say, probably very poorly. Sorry for that Dangerosity.
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Old 06-02-2011, 01:07 PM   #26
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Default Re: Anaerobic Training & Roadwork

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Ah, that makes a lot of sense now. So a better lactic tolerance or ability to clear lactic combined with a good aerobic system for overall recover = winning fitness formula?

In that sense, would it be pretty much worthless training the actual anaerobic system but rather just training lactic acid clearance so that you may enter your anaerobic threshold more frequently?
Boxing is a sport that relies GREATLY/MOSTLY on the aerobic energy system, even amateur boxing.
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Old 06-02-2011, 01:56 PM   #27
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Default Re: Anaerobic Training & Roadwork

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Boxing is a sport that relies GREATLY/MOSTLY on the aerobic energy system, even amateur boxing.
I agree with the 'greatly' part, but I don't know about 'mostly.' If anything wouldn't it be about 50/50? Without a good aerobic base you won't develop the anaerobic abilities required in a fight, and if you've developed anaerobic abilities but your aerobic system isn't well developed past that, you'll get winded pretty easily before the fights over.
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:28 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by BladeJrs View Post
I agree with the 'greatly' part, but I don't know about 'mostly.' If anything wouldn't it be about 50/50? Without a good aerobic base you won't develop the anaerobic abilities required in a fight, and if you've developed anaerobic abilities but your aerobic system isn't well developed past that, you'll get winded pretty easily before the fights over.
Very rarely in an energy expenditure chart done on any combat sport does heart rate stay above anaerobic threshold for more than seconds at a time. Even in 3 x 2 minute round fights 70% of energy is below anaerobic threshold.
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:33 PM   #29
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Very rarely in an energy expenditure chart done on any combat sport does heart rate stay above anaerobic threshold for more than seconds at a time. Even in 3 x 2 minute round fights 70% of energy is below anaerobic threshold.
I see what you're saying there, and that's a certainly interesting stat I never knew, but I mean 50/50 as in importance to boxing and training (since dangerousity asked if he should only train aerobic system), not 'duration' in a fight. If we're talking about where your heart rate is for a fight, I see what you're saying in that the aerobic system dominates for most of the time, but I'm saying 50/50 in that if someone goes into a fight with amazing aerobic abilities (i.e. can run marathons) but little to no anaerobic training, I can't see them doing well, because you need to balance things and train both systems . Would you agree with this?
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:49 PM   #30
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Default Re: Anaerobic Training & Roadwork

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I see what you're saying there, and that's a certainly interesting stat I never knew, but I mean 50/50 as in importance to boxing and training (since dangerousity asked if he should only train aerobic system), not 'duration' in a fight. If we're talking about where your heart rate is for a fight, I see what you're saying in that the aerobic system dominates for most of the time, but I'm saying 50/50 in that if someone goes into a fight with amazing aerobic abilities (i.e. can run marathons) but little to no anaerobic training, I can't see them doing well, because you need to balance things and train both systems . Would you agree with this?
I think we can conclude that we need both regardless. I can run 10 miles but still gas out in the ring, obviously my lactic tolerance isnt as good.

A lot of people are all for interval and sprints as the new scientific method, whereas science has actually just re-affirmed the importance of long distance runs.

Also I agree with you that the sport is atleast 50/50 in that regard. Although the heart rate is mostly in the aerobic zone, the fight is won when we enter anaerobic zone (throwing punches) and how often we can go there for the duration of the fight seems to be the measure of 'boxing fitness'.
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