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Old 05-31-2011, 08:14 PM   #61
yaca you
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Default Re: Gegard Mousasi in the UFC...

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I think you'd struggle to make one of current champions. The only one in the two main US promotions is really Silva who's had his three trickiest matches in the UFC against menwho have been able to take him down.

Other than that you have Jose Aldo who's shown pretty good takedown defense and five wrestlers in the UFC. In Strikeforce Melendez, Souza, Henderson all have good to great wrestling. Overeem and Diaz have yet to defend against a wrestler so we can't say either way.

The same is true even in Bellator where four out of the seven champions are Division I westlers while Alvarez and M'Pumbu have good wrestling (well judo in M'Pumbu's case) as well.

Its quite possible that Anderson Silva will be the last long-term champion in MMA history to suck at wrestling. Just the way the sport is evolving.

but I do want to add that lay'n pray is not a new tactic so if you point is that fighters are just more well rounded today I would mostly agree but if you mean that a fighter like with the skills of Anderson silva, Shogun Rua, Nog brothers, Fedor would not do well under the new evolved mma I have to disagree.
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Old 06-01-2011, 04:07 AM   #62
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Default Re: Gegard Mousasi in the UFC...

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but I do want to add that lay'n pray is not a new tactic so if you point is that fighters are just more well rounded today I would mostly agree but if you mean that a fighter like with the skills of Anderson silva, Shogun Rua, Nog brothers, Fedor would not do well under the new evolved mma I have to disagree.
A little of both to be honest. The quality of wrestlers coming into the sport is increasing, as is there understanding of other facets of the game. I mean you have guys like Ben Askren who are learning jiu-jitsu whilst going through the nationals.

Its not that wrestling is just an important skill its that its by far the most important. Good wrestling allows a fighter to dictate where the fight takes place, imposing their preferred strategy on their opponent. St. Pierre is a great example of this - he stands with grapplers like Shields but takes strikers like Alves down to the ground. And he's by no means unusual in this - look at how Gray Maynard kept the fight against Nate Diaz standing because he wanted nothing to do with Diaz's jiu-jitsu.

Really exceptional fighters may be able to rise above it as Silva does today but in all likelihood their camps will just work hard on improving their takedown defense. The likes of Nog, Fedor and Shogun would still thrive but they'd just have better takedown defense to keep the fight standing (and to be honest Nog and Fedor usually had the wrestling edge over their opponents anyway).

Last edited by Will Cooling; 06-01-2011 at 05:23 AM.
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Old 06-01-2011, 10:08 AM   #63
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Default Re: Gegard Mousasi in the UFC...

People seem to think that "adding takedown defense to his striking" is just that simple. If anyone has tried boxing/kickboxing for a while and then added takedowns you'll know that the stance and balance that you need to be able to stop takedowns gets you out of your optimal boxing/kickboxing stance and changes where your balance is. If Mousasi were to "learn takedown defense", expect for his striking to suffer somewhat because of it. It may be that this is the balance that he has chosen (hoping to knock guys out before they take him down) and he's not interested in becoming a lesser striker to avoid being taken down.
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Old 06-01-2011, 10:13 AM   #64
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Default Re: Gegard Mousasi in the UFC...

You're right Wilhelm but he's going to be competitive against the very best then he's going to have to improve his takedown defence. It really is as simple as that.
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Old 06-01-2011, 10:45 AM   #65
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Default Re: Gegard Mousasi in the UFC...

Anderson's wrestling game is extremely underrated imo. He has great takedown defense and a really nice double leg he rarely breaks out but has used to take down the likes of Chael, Cote, Rivera, and Lee Murray. Furthermore, you see Silva demonstrate and drill a lot of takedown techniques in his instructional and training videos so I'm pretty sure he understands the mechanics and fundamentals of wrestling. It not that Silva's wrestling game sucks, its that he holds a signifcant advantage on the feet against most if not all of his opponents so his wrestling takes a backseat unless he feels the need to mix it up.
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Old 06-01-2011, 11:00 AM   #66
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Default Re: Gegard Mousasi in the UFC...

Vitor Belfort and Travis Lutter would disprove that PimpThaSystem.
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Old 06-01-2011, 12:04 PM   #67
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Default Re: Gegard Mousasi in the UFC...

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Vitor Belfort and Travis Lutter would disprove that PimpThaSystem.
What's your point? I'm not saying Anderson is a great wrestler, just that he actually has a much better wrestling game than most people give him credit. Besides pointing out that Silva got put on his back when attempting flying knees and hook kicks isn't much of a knock on the guys take down defense anyway.

Question: when have you ever seen Silva attempt a take down and not get it?
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Old 06-01-2011, 02:11 PM   #68
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Default Re: Gegard Mousasi in the UFC...

50-50 with any of the primary strikers, no doubt. Mousasi is hardly shot on the floor either, he has survival ability.

But on recent form, Lawal showed that the wrestlers, of which there are better in UFCs 205 division, will manhandle him.
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Old 06-01-2011, 07:21 PM   #69
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Default Re: Gegard Mousasi in the UFC...

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50-50 with any of the primary strikers, no doubt. Mousasi is hardly shot on the floor either, he has survival ability.

But on recent form, Lawal showed that the wrestlers, of which there are better in UFCs 205 division, will manhandle him.

they will take him down and control him for a time, but will they beat him?

Im not convinced that Rashad, Rampage, Machida, Shogun, Griffin can do it... Im not, but we will find out.
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Old 06-01-2011, 07:44 PM   #70
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Default Re: Gegard Mousasi in the UFC...

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A little of both to be honest. The quality of wrestlers coming into the sport is increasing, as is there understanding of other facets of the game. I mean you have guys like Ben Askren who are learning jiu-jitsu whilst going through the nationals.

Its not that wrestling is just an important skill its that its by far the most important. Good wrestling allows a fighter to dictate where the fight takes place, imposing their preferred strategy on their opponent. St. Pierre is a great example of this - he stands with grapplers like Shields but takes strikers like Alves down to the ground. And he's by no means unusual in this - look at how Gray Maynard kept the fight against Nate Diaz standing because he wanted nothing to do with Diaz's jiu-jitsu.

Really exceptional fighters may be able to rise above it as Silva does today but in all likelihood their camps will just work hard on improving their takedown defense. The likes of Nog, Fedor and Shogun would still thrive but they'd just have better takedown defense to keep the fight standing (and to be honest Nog and Fedor usually had the wrestling edge over their opponents anyway).
I dont agree with this and I doubt I ever will, its been disproven too many times, and will continue to be. But this it the heart of the matter, Mousasi dosnt have the wrestling to prevent his opponents from taking him down = he wont succeed in the UFC.

complete nonesense.
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Old 06-02-2011, 12:03 AM   #71
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Default Re: Gegard Mousasi in the UFC...

very interesting. i would like for him to move to the middleweight division. too bad big rig got cut. would have been a good fight between these two.
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Old 06-02-2011, 04:53 AM   #72
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Default Re: Gegard Mousasi in the UFC...

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Rashad could not handle Machida's striking despite his wrestling pedigree, you really cannot dismiss great strikers like this, even though there are a few examples to the contrary I know.

I think Moussasi has what it takes to compete with the top 5 in the UFC

Rashad didn't try to take Machida down. He tried to strike with him even after he started getting smacked all over the cage. Not that it matters though. If Rashad had come in with a wrestling gameplan, he may have been able to take Machida down a couple times and wall-and-stall him for a few rounds, but he would have gassed eventually. Machida would have made him do the stanky leg regardless.

Back to Mousasi, I don't know why you're comparing him to Machida. Lyoto has some of the best takedown defense at 205. Mousasi loses a decision to anybody at 205 with decent wrestling. The Johnson/Torres decision just showed how heavily judges favor the fighter in top position no matter how active the guy on the bottom is. If he can't stop them with strikes, he's ****ed. Considering the fact that Jardine took him down almost at well, I just don't see him doing that well against any of the top LHWs in the UFC.
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Old 06-02-2011, 05:52 AM   #73
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Default Re: Gegard Mousasi in the UFC...

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Back to Mousasi, I don't know why you're comparing him to Machida. Lyoto has some of the best takedown defense at 205. Mousasi loses a decision to anybody at 205 with decent wrestling. The Johnson/Torres decision just showed how heavily judges favor the fighter in top position no matter how active the guy on the bottom is. If he can't stop them with strikes, he's ****ed. Considering the fact that Jardine took him down almost at well, I just don't see him doing that well against any of the top LHWs in the UFC.
Yea however bro mousasi can pull submissions on nearly every lhw in the UFC and plus the good wrestlers such as ryan bader, rashad evans do not have the kind of striking ability mousasi posseses therefore i believe since every fight starts standing mousasi would be able to get an upperhand and possibility finish the fight, the exception to the category is jon jones who has amazing wrestling and striking which i dont think mousasi would have a chance against.
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:55 AM   #74
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Default Re: Gegard Mousasi in the UFC...

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Rashad didn't try to take Machida down. He tried to strike with him even after he started getting smacked all over the cage. Not that it matters though. If Rashad had come in with a wrestling gameplan, he may have been able to take Machida down a couple times and wall-and-stall him for a few rounds, but he would have gassed eventually. Machida would have made him do the stanky leg regardless.

Back to Mousasi, I don't know why you're comparing him to Machida. Lyoto has some of the best takedown defense at 205. Mousasi loses a decision to anybody at 205 with decent wrestling. The Johnson/Torres decision just showed how heavily judges favor the fighter in top position no matter how active the guy on the bottom is. If he can't stop them with strikes, he's ****ed. Considering the fact that Jardine took him down almost at well, I just don't see him doing that well against any of the top LHWs in the UFC.
I was comparing Machida to Mousasi because they are both unorthodox strikers. Part of Machida TD is being able to make people pay for shooting in on him.

While Mousasi has had trouble with wrestlers he does have the ability to overcome this because of his ground game and judo. The talent is there, he just needs more time to make the transition.
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