Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-30-2007, 11:26 AM   #16
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,308
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Can I make a request to keep the other fighters mostly out of this thread? I perfer to keep it a Dempsey thread.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 11-30-2007, 11:26 AM   #17
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,420
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Foreman would utterly cream Dempsey if we speak head to head.
I might make Foreman a slim favourite, but "utterly cream" is not how I see it. To be frank, I don't think that Foreman could beat any one of the following - Ali (ahem), Louis, Liston (no hope), Lewis, Hollyfield, Jeffries, Holmes, Hollyfield, Frazier (ok, this one is a joke) or Tyson. So he beats Frazier, and the only other guy he has a chance against in my 10 is Johnson.

Dempsey is a much, much, much better composite puncher for me than Foreman. I think he was #9 on my recent composite punchers list. Foreman was not even considered, really. So therefore, Dempsey, (who is also an underdog v most of these guys) has the better punchers chance for me.

Quote:
Marciano needs to be higher, the man was never beaten. Took on pretty much all comers too. He's got to be ahead of Dempsey for sure and probably Foreman too. When i complete my 10 Rocky will surely be top 7 or 8, possibly even down to 5.
Marciano is a problem for me, yes indeed.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 11:34 AM   #18
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,753
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Can I make a request to keep the other fighters mostly out of this thread? I perfer to keep it a Dempsey thread.
What do you think about Wilbert " Vampire" Johnson?
mr. magoo is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 11:36 AM   #19
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,308
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
What do you think about Wilbert " Vampire" Johnson?
Ok, but it's almost lunch time and I am going out to an Italian place with Garlic rolls.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 11:39 AM   #20
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,753
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Ok, but it's almost lunch time and I am going out to an Italian place with Garlic rolls.
LOL


Bon Apetit...
mr. magoo is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2007, 12:05 PM   #21
dmt
Hardest hitting hw ever
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,175
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
While itís true Dempsey lacks a win over another all time great heavyweight, and he has some shady outcomes in some of his most famous matches, I believe he has done enough to rank as a top all time 10 heavyweight.

Hereís why I beleive Dempsey should be highly rated:

*Power. Dempsey was a true two fisted puncher, with knockout power in both the cross and the hook. Many punchers only have fight ending power in one hand. With Dempsey, once he landed his best, the other guy often went down quickly, and shortly after that was O-U-T. Dempsey was not an attrition type of puncher like Marciano or Frazier were in most cases. Dempsey carried his power well into the later rounds too.

*Size and Style. Dempsey was an aggressive swarmer / stalker type who excelled as both an out fighter, and an in-fighter. He worked the head and the body equally well and could string together combinations. At 6í1 1/2Ē, and 77Ē of reach, Dempsey was by no means a short or limited reach type of fighter. While a prime Dempsey weighed about 188 pounds in the 1920ís, he had no trouble knocking out modern sized heavyweights, and some of them had top chins. Dempsey had the frame to properly carry about 205-210 pounds.

*Speed, reflexes, and agility. Dempsey had excellent hand speed, good reflexes, and unusually quick feet in comparison to all great heavyweights. He could move forward, backwards, or in a circular motion to get angles on others fighter. Most punchers just arenít this fast with their hands or their feet, nor can they circle or get angles then attack the way Dempsey could. Dempsey has a speed advantage over most sluggers, a reach and height advantage over most swarmers, and the footwork speed to catch up to the deluxe boxer types. When you combine this with his power and aggressive nature, you have a unique type of fighter.

*Chin. Dempsey has one KO loss in 83 fights. This is very good. Dempsey fought a few good punchers. He survived a chin checking shot vs Fripo, and a pasting from Jack Sharkey. Dempsey was not a chinny puncher at all.

*Heart and will to win. Dempsey proved he had a ton of heart in the Fripo match, and would do what it took to win. In the clinches, Dempsey was pure hell.

* Stamina. A prime Dempsey had true 15 round stamina.

* Defense. Dempsey had a very good slip and duck type of defense, which can be seen on film. Most swarmer types who prefer to attack do not have this good of a defense.

* Ring record. 66-6-11 at Box rec. The losses to Tunney were vs another all time great when Dempsey was past his best. One of those losses to Tunney is marred by ď the long count ď, which might have been a KO win for Dempsey if there was no problem with the count. Besides the Tunney losses, Dempsey lost to Flynn. The Flynn loss was was avenged via KO. Dempsey never lost a match scheduled for 6 rounds or more. Had the Meehan fights been 10 round affairs, Dempsey likely wins via TKO late.

* Quality wins. Dempsey holds wins over Fripo, Willard, J. Sharkey, Gibbons, Carpentier, Brennan, Miske, Gunboat Smith, Morris, Levinsky, Fulton, and Pelky. Dempsey owns a KO win over all these ranked fighters, except for Gibbons who ran for 15 rounds.

*Historical opinions. Dempsey is a highly rated fighter to this day. Boxing historians, mangers, referees, promoters, fighters, and fans who saw Dempsey rated him in the top 3 in the 1940ís, 1950ís, and 1960ís and 1970ís. In 2007 the IBRO, a group of boxing historians gave Dempsey their #4 spot in the top 20 among heavyweights. While I think these rating might be a trifle high, they do speak volumes about opinions on Dempsey in multiple decades.

*Film. There is no doubt Dempsey had some speical performances on film in the ring, and in sparring session that live up to his legendary status. Not all old timers perform on film as good as their legend suggests they should have. While the film quality on Dempsey isnít smooth or crystal clear, we can get a good feel for what he was about.
good post Mendoza, excellent post infact
dmt is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2007, 02:24 AM   #22
Marciano Frazier
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,469
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

I pretty much agree with your assessment of Dempsey. He's #7 on my list.
Marciano Frazier is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2007, 03:50 AM   #23
Maxmomer
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,690
vCash: 619
Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
I might make Foreman a slim favourite, but "utterly cream" is not how I see it. To be frank, I don't think that Foreman could beat any one of the following - Ali (ahem), Louis, Liston (no hope), Lewis, Hollyfield, Jeffries, Holmes, Hollyfield, Frazier (ok, this one is a joke) or Tyson. So he beats Frazier, and the only other guy he has a chance against in my 10 is Johnson.

Dempsey is a much, much, much better composite puncher for me than Foreman. I think he was #9 on my recent composite punchers list. Foreman was not even considered, really. So therefore, Dempsey, (who is also an underdog v most of these guys) has the better punchers chance for me.
People seem to now assume that Foreman would destroy any swarmer syle fighter just because he destroyed a shot Frazier. Shot Frazier and prime Dempsey are two different matters. I'd have it 50/50.
Maxmomer is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2007, 06:41 AM   #24
JohnThomas1
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,119
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregDempsey
dempsey was way faster then both foreman and the rock..but foreman may well have beat him given his size and success with fighters of dempseys frame he had..but dempsey was able to box good..witness the first 2 mintues of dempsey willard..where he darted in and out...far better a boxer then tommy morrison...but of course.thats a old foreman the duke beat..as for the rock...the rock gets owned...check out my thread i have about dempsey sparring..has some good footage of his taking on big bill tate.
Enjoyed the sparring actually. Sorry but noway can i see 190 pound swarmer surviving against Foreman. D'Amato made the comment no swarmer in history beats Foreman and i agree. Tyson would be toughest. Foreman's got a superb chin too, stylistically he's a nightmare for Dempsey.
JohnThomas1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2007, 06:52 AM   #25
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,659
vCash: 238
Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Excellent assessment Mendoza. I rank Dempsey somewhere around #10, but the difference between #7 and #10 is small and part of it comes to personal preference, of course.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2007, 07:15 AM   #26
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,308
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Enjoyed the sparring actually. Sorry but noway can i see 190 pound swarmer surviving against Foreman. D'Amato made the comment no swarmer in history beats Foreman and i agree. Tyson would be toughest. Foreman's got a superb chin too, stylistically he's a nightmare for Dempsey.
JT,

Dempsey wasn't a stationary swarmer like others. He moved and circled very well. Did Dempsey attack Willard square up, or did he move and wait for an opening? A prime Dempsey moved around more than Ali did when he fought a prime Foreman in 1974. Itís true.

Judging on how easily Dempsey dropped men bigger than Foreman, you have to assume he could drop Foreman too if he landed enough. Lyle, who did not hit as hard as Dempsey dropped Foreman twice and nearly had him out. Ail and Young also dropped Foreman, though part of it was due to Foreman running out of gas, which would be a problem for him in the mid to late rounds if he didn't finish Dempsey early.

Dempsey being 190 pounds has nothing to do with his power. I think Willard and Firpo had good to very good chins, and Dempsey floored each man multiple times in the first round! Foreman had a wide open defense and wild swinging style. He could not match Dempsey's hand speed.

Foreman vs Dempsey is a pick em' type of fight in my book.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2007, 07:44 AM   #27
Bummy Davis
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 9,496
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

I rated Dempsey high but because of the impressiveway he desposed of Willard not so much of the win, the Firpo win to me impresses because of Jacks brutal 2 fisted power against a guy who was wild and hard to defend against. Dempsey was not active but if you look at the Heavyweights who preceded him, none were, even Johnson did not defend against the Black challegers of his time. Dempsey had the 1st million dollar gate and the Promoter Tex Richard had a lot of control on who Jack fought but I rated Jack high #4 and one of the reasons was that even a faded (legs) Dempsey was impressive with the long count fight over Tunney(great mover, fast hands and feet) and brutal Ko over Sharkey. Dempsey was one of the meanest with killer instinct in boxing had decent speed and power but did not have the example of a Louis (defended vs all) Marciano( 5 times vs #1 contender) Dempsey was the 1st of the great batch but could have defended more times if his focus was on boxing. I have to evalute his place when I revaluate my ratings, he may be lower but then I must do the same with Jeffries,Johnson and Holmes who did not always fight the best of there times.
Bummy Davis is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2007, 08:09 AM   #28
JohnThomas1
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,119
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
JT,

Dempsey wasn't a stationary swarmer like others. He moved and circled very well. Did Dempsey attack Willard square up, or did he move and wait for an opening?
Contrary to some belief Frazier wasn't totally statuesque either. Tyson in his early days had sensational head movement and elusiveness. Marciano was underrated for his awkwardness in defense too. I still like Foreman over them all.

Quote:
A prime Dempsey moved around more than Ali did when he fought a prime Foreman in 1974. Itís true.
Well Ali only moved for one round, if that. He came up with a surpreme on the spot strategy that centered around his unbelievable ability to take punishment both to head AND body. Why did Ali choose to rope a dope? The two consensus reasons are that he knew he couldn't dance all night vs George and you also hear that he thought Foreman cut off the ring too well. Even at that stage i'm sure Ali could have been more elusive than Dempsey could ever dream of, but knew the strategy would not prevail.

The thing is, swarmers really really don't like to fight backing up. Foreman can and indeed will back them up. His chin, size and strength give him every chance too. Dempsey at 190 is going to be backed up. It won't be good news.

Quote:
Judging on how easily Dempsey dropped men bigger than Foreman, you have to assume he could drop Foreman too if he landed enough.
I can't remember anyone as small as Dempsey ever knocking full blown Foreman to the canvas. Many people dropped bigger men than Foreman, but that didn't mean they were going to drop George. George thumped out many bigger men than Dempsey, and men with good chins. I cannot see Dempsey being in the fight long enough to land the punches needed to do the job. I'm also a bit dubious of his power at 190. To be honest i think it might be a tad overrated.

Quote:
Lyle, who did not hit as hard as Dempsey dropped Foreman twice and nearly had him out.
Did Dempsey hit harder than Lyle tho? Lyle was 30 pounds bigger and sure got some nice leverage on his shots. Dempsey is more explosive, but it takes a lot of that to make up for 30 well used pounds. Lyle was a damn hard puncher. Also, this is not the best of Foreman. He is one of these fighters who was never quite the same again once his aura of invincibility was taken, IMO. Even so, that Lyle could drop a guy with a fantastic chin like Foreman speaks volumes for his power.

Quote:
Ail and Young also dropped Foreman, though part of it was due to Foreman running out of gas, which would be a problem for him in the mid to late rounds if he didn't finish Dempsey early.
Now i can agree. I can't see Dempsey getting there, but yes, if he somehow did it would be tougher. Don't forget Jack's size dictates he won't be taking much out of Foreman in the clinches.

Quote:
Dempsey being 190 pounds has nothing to do with his power.
I totally disagree. Tell me when is the last time a guy 190 or below walked around routinely knocking out top class heavyweights? Again, i fear Dempsey's power when matched against top class modern heavyweights will be shown to be overrated.
JohnThomas1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2007, 12:25 PM   #29
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,317
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
I totally disagree. Tell me when is the last time a guy 190 or below walked around routinely knocking out top class heavyweights? Again, i fear Dempsey's power when matched against top class modern heavyweights will be shown to be overrated.
Dempseys power is one factor that can be taken for granted.

Whatever you think about the big men he knocked out their ability to absorb punishment would have been comparable to big heavyweights from other eras. Lennox Lewis's bones would shatter just like Jess Willards if Dempsey landed on him.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2007, 12:47 PM   #30
Woddy
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Whatever you think about the big men he knocked out their ability to absorb punishment would have been comparable to big heavyweights from other eras. Lennox Lewis's bones would shatter just like Jess Willards if Dempsey landed on him.
How can you possibly surmize that Dempsey's power would have been too much for Lewis? Throughout his career, Lewis took shots from countless numbers of fighters who could bang. Mason, Klitschko, Golata, Grant, Bruno, Morrison and many others. I'd say his chin and durabity were very well tested to say the least. He was of course stoppe by Rahman and McCall, but one of those fights came when he was 35 years old, while the other was a possible pre-mature stoppage. In both cases McCall and Rahman were well over 200 Lbs, and not 190.
 Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013