Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

[prime]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

While it’s true Dempsey lacks a win over another all time great heavyweight, and he has some shady outcomes in some of his most famous matches, I believe he has done enough to rank as a top all time 10 heavyweight.

Here’s why I beleive Dempsey should be highly rated:

*Power. Dempsey was a true two fisted puncher, with knockout power in both the cross and the hook. Many punchers only have fight ending power in one hand. With Dempsey, once he landed his best, the other guy often went down quickly, and shortly after that was O-U-T. Dempsey was not an attrition type of puncher like Marciano or Frazier were in most cases. Dempsey carried his power well into the later rounds too.

*Size and Style. Dempsey was an aggressive swarmer / stalker type who excelled as both an out fighter, and an in-fighter. He worked the head and the body equally well and could string together combinations. At 6’1 1/2”, and 77” of reach, Dempsey was by no means a short or limited reach type of fighter. While a prime Dempsey weighed about 188 pounds in the 1920’s, he had no trouble knocking out modern sized heavyweights, and some of them had top chins. Dempsey had the frame to properly carry about 205-210 pounds.

*Speed, reflexes, and agility. Dempsey had excellent hand speed, good reflexes, and unusually quick feet in comparison to all great heavyweights. He could move forward, backwards, or in a circular motion to get angles on others fighter. Most punchers just aren’t this fast with their hands or their feet, nor can they circle or get angles then attack the way Dempsey could. Dempsey has a speed advantage over most sluggers, a reach and height advantage over most swarmers, and the footwork speed to catch up to the deluxe boxer types. When you combine this with his power and aggressive nature, you have a unique type of fighter.

*Chin. Dempsey has one KO loss in 83 fights. This is very good. Dempsey fought a few good punchers. He survived a chin checking shot vs Fripo, and a pasting from Jack Sharkey. Dempsey was not a chinny puncher at all.

*Heart and will to win. Dempsey proved he had a ton of heart in the Fripo match, and would do what it took to win. In the clinches, Dempsey was pure hell.

* Stamina. A prime Dempsey had true 15 round stamina.

* Defense. Dempsey had a very good slip and duck type of defense, which can be seen on film. Most swarmer types who prefer to attack do not have this good of a defense.

* Ring record. 66-6-11 at Box rec. The losses to Tunney were vs another all time great when Dempsey was past his best. One of those losses to Tunney is marred by “ the long count “, which might have been a KO win for Dempsey if there was no problem with the count. Besides the Tunney losses, Dempsey lost to Flynn. The Flynn loss was was avenged via KO. Dempsey never lost a match scheduled for 6 rounds or more. Had the Meehan fights been 10 round affairs, Dempsey likely wins via TKO late.

* Quality wins. Dempsey holds wins over Fripo, Willard, J. Sharkey, Gibbons, Carpentier, Brennan, Miske, Gunboat Smith, Morris, Levinsky, Fulton, and Pelky. Dempsey owns a KO win over all these ranked fighters, except for Gibbons who ran for 15 rounds.

*Historical opinions. Dempsey is a highly rated fighter to this day. Boxing historians, mangers, referees, promoters, fighters, and fans who saw Dempsey rated him in the top 3 in the 1940’s, 1950’s, and 1960’s and 1970’s. In 2007 the IBRO, a group of boxing historians gave Dempsey their #4 spot in the top 20 among heavyweights. While I think these rating might be a trifle high, they do speak volumes about opinions on Dempsey in multiple decades.

*Film. There is no doubt Dempsey had some speical performances on film in the ring, and in sparring session that live up to his legendary status. Not all old timers perform on film as good as their legend suggests they should have. While the film quality on Dempsey isn’t smooth or crystal clear, we can get a good feel for what he was about.

Thank you, Mendoza, for this wonderful post. Each point you mention is meaty stuff and spot-on regarding a great who, as you say, was that rare two-fisted power puncher with good boxing fundamentals, speed, chin, stamina, heart and charismatic aura.

I learn just by watching Dempsey a few seconds on those old films. As you say, in contrast to other names, he grows bigger in estimation when you compare the hype to the film. This guy was the real deal.

[OLD FOGEY]

Originally Posted by dmt

did u know how badly he was robbed especially in their last fight?

That fight was in San Franciso. The SF library has microfilm of five newspapers which covered the fight. Four of them had Meehan winning.

Off the newspaper description, Meehan was not a jab and move guy, but a swarmer who came forward and threw a great many slap punches. The reporters commented that Dempsey was not nearly as effective with a fighter who carried the fight to him.

Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY

That fight was in San Franciso. The SF library has microfilm of five newspapers which covered the fight. Four of them had Meehan winning.

Off the newspaper description, Meehan was not a jab and move guy, but a swarmer who came forward and threw a great many slap punches. The reporters commented that Dempsey was not nearly as effective with a fighter who carried the fight to him.

Thank you Old Fogey.

Its nice to see someone who actually uses references to support his arguments, rather than some who merely argue from pure emotion and nothing else.

I'd sure like to see dmt respond to this.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Originally Posted by dmt

The two "draws" and the last fight in particular were badly booed by the crowd

Fight reports would be worth looking at.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY

That fight was in San Franciso. The SF library has microfilm of five newspapers which covered the fight. Four of them had Meehan winning.

If this is true, then it looks like DMT's been hitchin' a ride with Janitor to Liarsville.

[dmt]

Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY

That fight was in San Franciso. The SF library has microfilm of five newspapers which covered the fight. Four of them had Meehan winning.

Off the newspaper description, Meehan was not a jab and move guy, but a swarmer who came forward and threw a great many slap punches. The reporters commented that Dempsey was not nearly as effective with a fighter who carried the fight to him.

i don't know OLD FOGEY, i read that this was more of an exhibition fight, and that Meehan was knocked down during it.

Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh

If this is true, then it looks like DMT's been hitchin' a ride with Janitor to Liarsville.

Hey what's wrong with lying? If you're creative enough, you can defend just about anything in the world that you want to.

DMT is learning the trade quite well.

[dmt]

here's one quote by eric jorgensen of cbz " Oh, yeah, the 5th fight in 1919. Bear with me whilst I set the stage here: it was a benefit for the U.S. Navy (contemporary accounts call it an "exhibition", in fact), Meehan was in the Navy, and the crowd was comprised almost entirely of Naval personnel. Due to the spirit of the proceedings and his friendship with Meehan, Dempsey adopted a pretty relaxed attitude in this fight, but not so relaxed that he didn't again dominate completely, chasing Meehan all over the ring, even dropping him (perhaps accidentally) for a count in the 2nd. There was no question that Dempsey was by far the better man that night. But, there was also no question whose hand the referee and sole judge would raise at the end. They say the crowd of cadets went wild. . . ."

Originally Posted by dmt

i don't know OLD FOGEY, i read that this was more of an exhibition fight, and that Meehan was knocked down during it.

Of course, anytime a blemish shows up on the record of a perceived all time great, then its automatically an exhibition right. In that case, why don't we just call Tyson-Douglas an exhibition. Or Ali Spinks an exhibition.

What about the other 4 meetings that Dempsey had with Meehan, including the one where Dempsey actually got a "W"? Were they exhibitions to?

[dmt]

Originally Posted by Woddy

Of course, anytime a blemish shows up on the record of a perceived all time great, then its automatically an exhibition right. In that case, why don't we just call Tyson-Douglas an exhibition. Or Ali Spinks an exhibition.

i said i read it was an exnhibiton, i didn't say i was 100 percent sure

[My dinner with Conteh]

Originally Posted by dmt

here's one quote by eric jorgensen of cbz " Oh, yeah, the 5th fight in 1919. Bear with me whilst I set the stage here: it was a benefit for the U.S. Navy (contemporary accounts call it an "exhibition", in fact), Meehan was in the Navy, and the crowd was comprised almost entirely of Naval personnel. Due to the spirit of the proceedings and his friendship with Meehan, Dempsey adopted a pretty relaxed attitude in this fight, but not so relaxed that he didn't again dominate completely, chasing Meehan all over the ring, even dropping him (perhaps accidentally) for a count in the 2nd. There was no question that Dempsey was by far the better man that night. But, there was also no question whose hand the referee and sole judge would raise at the end. They say the crowd of cadets went wild. . . ."

Who wrote this and what's it taken from?

Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh

Who wrote this and what's it taken from?

What's more, does it account for the results of Dempsey and Meehan's other 4 meetings?

[dmt]

Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh

Who wrote this and what's it taken from?

it's taken from Cyber boxing zone, i did not make anything up, all i said it this is what i found

[My dinner with Conteh]

Originally Posted by Woddy

What's more, does it account for the results of Dempsey and Miske's other 4 meetings?

It reads like a quote from someone who witnessed the bout "there's no question Dempsey won" but then the "they say the cadets went wild" seems to contradict this presence.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Originally Posted by dmt

it's taken from Cyber boxing zone, i did not make anything up, all i said it this is what i found

I'm talking about the original quote. Who's saying this stuff?