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Old 12-01-2007, 01:42 PM   #61
dmt
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Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
It reads like a quote from someone who witnessed the bout "there's no question Dempsey won" but then the "they say the cadets went wild" seems to contradict this presence.
still going to show up when and where Dempsey was knocked down by a welterweight?
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:43 PM   #62
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Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
I'm talking about the original quote. Who's saying this stuff?
historian Eric Jorgensen, a writer for Cyber Boxing Zone
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:45 PM   #63
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Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

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Originally Posted by dmt
historian Eric Jorgensen, a writer for Cyber Boxing Zone

If the man is a current writer for Cyber Boxing Zone, then I seriously doubt that he was present to witness this fight.
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:46 PM   #64
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Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

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Originally Posted by Woddy
Of course, anytime a blemish shows up on the record of a perceived all time great, then its automatically an exhibition right. In that case, why don't we just call Tyson-Douglas an exhibition. Or Ali Spinks an exhibition.

What about the other 4 meetings that Dempsey had with Meehan, including the one where Dempsey actually got a "W"? Were they exhibitions to?
In this period the line between exhibitions and fights was blured. Somtimes an exhibition ended up being a fight because the state athletic comision required it to be and vice versa.
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:51 PM   #65
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Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

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Originally Posted by dmt
i don't know OLD FOGEY, i read that this was more of an exhibition fight, and that Meehan was knocked down during it.

It was a fight for a naval charity of some sort, but I guess it was considered a real fight. The papers did comment that it was a great gesture on the part of Dempsey to take part and risk his status. Willard, if I remember correctly, had turned them down flat and so Dempsey stepped in as the replacement, a shrewd move on Kearns' part. There was a consensus that the defeat should not be held against Dempsey as he had graciously and patriotically agreed to fight for charity.
Dempsey did knock down Meehan for a nine count in the second, if memory serves, but Meehan seems to have had the edge in the other rounds and he rallied in the fourth to slap Dempsey about the ring. Meehan seems to have been a swarmer with busy hands. This style may have bothered Dempsey more than classic boxers or certainly big, but slow, fellows such as Willard or Fulton.

Kearns did claim Dempsey had fought with an injured hand and at least one reporter agreed that it was bruised and swollen. Dempsey fought the next night and stopped Jack Moran in one.

Last edited by OLD FOGEY; 12-02-2007 at 12:56 AM.
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:54 PM   #66
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Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

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Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
Meehan seems to have been a come forward swarmer with busy hands.
I had Meehan pegged as a go backwards swarmer with busy hands if you can imagine that.
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:58 PM   #67
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Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

The arm forces will always root for one of there own though. So as in the case here, its not shock imo, that they went with Meehan.
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Old 12-01-2007, 03:19 PM   #68
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Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

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Originally Posted by dmt
still going to show up when and where Dempsey was knocked down by a welterweight?

Banana Sam was that man. Ask Earnie Shavers.
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Old 12-01-2007, 07:17 PM   #69
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Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

According to a few newspaper accounts OLD FOGEY posted here a while back, Dempsey wasn't robbed as clearly as Jorgensen's article makes it sound, but it was definitely close, it was only a four-rounder, it was a semi-exhibitionish fight at a charity event, and Dempsey probably wasn't taking it very seriously. I don't really think this is an enormous blotch on Dempsey's legacy.
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Old 12-01-2007, 07:28 PM   #70
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Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Some info I dug up from my Boxing Illustrated 100-Years-of-Boxing 1992 issue:

1918
Willie Meehan W4 Jack Dempsey
September 13
San Francisco

Fat Willie gets off deck to slap Dempsey around for four rounds, gets decision in Dempsey's last defeat until Tunney.

Fighter of the Year 1918
Jack Dempsey
Knocked out Jim Flynn, Bill Brennan, Arthur Pelkey, Fred Fulton, Battling Levinsky, Carl Morris and Gunboat Smith, among others; 20-1 on year; scored 17 kayoes, 12 in the first round; only loss against Willie Meehan in "California Law" four-round affair.

Not a bad year at all for Jack Dempsey. Amazing work rate. Even the best baseball teams will lose to mediocrities after the first twenty games of the season. This was obviously not Dempsey's best day against an awkward opponent he still almost knocked out.

In those days, most fighters had more or less the mentality of the Major Leaguer facing the 162-game season. You win some, you might lose some because you fought often. Today it is much about protecting the precious "0" in the loss column.

Dempsey and Meehan never fought beyond four rounds. In their brief bouts, Dempsey perhaps never established clear superiority over Fat Willie, but styles make fights. No way is Norton the equal of Ali.
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:34 PM   #71
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Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Quote:
Originally Posted by prime
Some info I dug up from my Boxing Illustrated 100-Years-of-Boxing 1992 issue:

1918
Willie Meehan W4 Jack Dempsey
September 13
San Francisco

Fat Willie gets off deck to slap Dempsey around for four rounds, gets decision in Dempsey's last defeat until Tunney.

Fighter of the Year 1918
Jack Dempsey
Knocked out Jim Flynn, Bill Brennan, Arthur Pelkey, Fred Fulton, Battling Levinsky, Carl Morris and Gunboat Smith, among others; 20-1 on year; scored 17 kayoes, 12 in the first round; only loss against Willie Meehan in "California Law" four-round affair.

Not a bad year at all for Jack Dempsey. Amazing work rate. Even the best baseball teams will lose to mediocrities after the first twenty games of the season. This was obviously not Dempsey's best day against an awkward opponent he still almost knocked out.

In those days, most fighters had more or less the mentality of the Major Leaguer facing the 162-game season. You win some, you might lose some because you fought often. Today it is much about protecting the precious "0" in the loss column.

Dempsey and Meehan never fought beyond four rounds. In their brief bouts, Dempsey perhaps never established clear superiority over Fat Willie, but styles make fights. No way is Norton the equal of Ali.
True. In addition, the San Francisco Chronicle reported that, "It was told by friends of Dempsey before the fight started that he [Dempsey] had a damaged left hand." The referee for the match also said, "without doubt that bad hand handicapped Dempsey from landing hard punches."

In other words, these guys are vehemently bashing the man on the basis of one very close loss in a four-rounder to an awkward opponent while fighting a not-so-serious charity match with an injured hand. Hypercritical much?
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Old 12-02-2007, 05:33 AM   #72
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Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Well, if we're going to talk about friends saying fighters were handicapped somehow then we'd be here all year. We could then go on about how the NY Times reported Tommy Gibbons looking ill, weight-drained and generally useless before his fight with Dempsey, for example.
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Old 12-02-2007, 06:25 AM   #73
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Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
It was a fight for a naval charity of some sort, but I guess it was considered a real fight. The papers did comment that it was a great gesture on the part of Dempsey to take part and risk his status. Willard, if I remember correctly, had turned them down flat and so Dempsey stepped in as the replacement, a shrewd move on Kearns' part. There was a consensus that the defeat should not be held against Dempsey as he had graciously and patriotically agreed to fight for charity.
Dempsey did knock down Meehan for a nine count in the second, if memory serves, but Meehan seems to have had the edge in the other rounds and he rallied in the fourth to slap Dempsey about the ring. Meehan seems to have been a swarmer with busy hands. This style may have bothered Dempsey more than classic boxers or certainly big, but slow, fellows such as Willard or Fulton.

Kearns did claim Dempsey had fought with an injured hand and at least one reporter agreed that it was bruised and swollen. Dempsey fought the next night and stopped Jack Moran in one.
that's fair OLD FOGEY. Wherever i read it was considered more of an exhibition. I will try to find some newspaper reports. If i can't then that's my bad luck but i will try to get deeper into this
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Old 12-02-2007, 12:25 PM   #74
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Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

OLD FOGEY, i found a report on this

By Leon Meyer
' SAN FRANCISCO.—Amid the wild-
est enthusiasm thathas greeted a pair
of boxers in the local ring in several
years, Referee Eddie Graney awarded
Willie Meehan the decisio over Jack
Dempsey after four rounds of rather
hard-fighting at the Civic auditorium,
the other night.
While the spectators, especially the
gallery gods, cheered the decision
loudly, it did an injustice to Jack
Kearns fighter. Dempsey was at least
entitled to a draw.
What little damage was done during
the four rounds belonged to Dempsey.
His punches had far more sting than
Meehan's and he came dangerously
near scoring a knockout in the second
round, when he sat Willie down with
a left hook to the jaw and pumped in
some pile driving punches to the rolypoly
heavy's head and body. Meehan
was in a wobbly condition at bell time.
The third found Willie fully recuperated,
thanks to his good condition,
and he fairly tore at Dempsey, swinging
his arms from every angle. He
startled Dempsey with his come back
and the latter was forced back to the
ropes before he regained his equilibrium.
When Meehan again rushed
Dempsey landed a left-swing that
staggered him. As he did so it was
noticed that he dropped the arm, and
after the contest it was discovered
that h!s left hand was in a badly
swollen condition;
Dempsev acted as if in pain and
didn't fight back as hard as he might
have done, and Meehan took the lead
and kept it to the end of the round,
The punches Willie kept uncorking
usually missed their mark, but His
rushes forced Dempsey back and it
appeared to the spectators at a distance
that the blows were staggering
him, while they had little or no effect.
The fourth round waS fairly even.
Meehan was rushing and swinging
wildly, while Dempsey was shooting
in some short jolts, with an occasional
swing. Willie kept in close all through
the round, and with his arms working
overtime it appeared as if he was
doing some great execution. The majority
of the blows, however, were
smothered by Dempsey.
For two rounds Dempsey looked like
a greatly improved fighter. He was
fast on his feet, blocked nicely and
had a fine assortment of hooks and
swings that hurt. Beginning with the
third he seemed to slow up, but he
stated after the contest, and the condition
of his hand bore this out, that
he was in -pain and could hardly use
his left- hand."
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Old 12-02-2007, 12:27 PM   #75
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Default Re: Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

Quote:
Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
If this is true, then it looks like DMT's been hitchin' a ride with Janitor to Liarsville.
i don't make anything up and i try to provide evidence for what i say instead of making jokes about Dempsey being knocked down by welters
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