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Old 07-03-2007, 03:03 PM   #76
Senya13
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis v Muhammad Ali

Unlike Clay, Lewis didn't have the help of a trainer to save him from a knockout vs McCall. And unlike Ali, Lewis, even when he was old, didn't get knocked senseless twice in the same round by old retired sparring-partner (that means BIG padded gloves) who started his career as a middleweight.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:11 PM   #77
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis v Muhammad Ali

I agree with you a 40 year old Lewis beats a 40 year old Ali.

Senya I think where both right. This whole time I thought you were foolish to say

a Prime Lewis could beat a Prime Ali but you were saying old Lewis beats Old Ali

I have to agree with you on that

Prime versus Prime Lewis doesn't have a chance. Ali never lost in his prime and

Lewis lost twice in his prime. Even if the Cooper round had 2 minutes left in it

Ali would of found a way to win Dundee is just trying to

make himself out to be more important then he is.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:12 PM   #78
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis v Muhammad Ali

Senya name another top 10 heavyweight that got knocked out by two bums

Don't spin it now I want fighters names not explainations and excuses
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:20 PM   #79
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis v Muhammad Ali

Briggs had Lewis in bad trouble . Briggs couldn't hurt the fat and slow

version of Foreman but in minutes he hurts Lewis. The same Foreman who Ali

knocked out had no trouble taking punches from Briggs. I laugh everytime I

watch that bum Briggs give Lewis all he could handle
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:21 PM   #80
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis v Muhammad Ali

Name me another top 10 heavyweight that was stopped by old retired former middleweight, wearing sparring gloves.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:25 PM   #81
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis v Muhammad Ali

You lost the prime versus prime argument so you have to change it to old Ali

I agree the old Ali that fought Holmes and Berbick sucked. Put it this way

I would take both McCall and Rahman over the old Ali that's how bad he was
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:33 PM   #82
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis v Muhammad Ali

Prime Lewis didn't get a boxing lesson from Doug Jones, or got knocked down by Billy Daniels and Henry Cooper, he didn't win his title in a fixed fight, he didn't defend it in another fixed fight, and he ddn't defend it afterwards against several mediocre or injured fighters.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:34 PM   #83
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis v Muhammad Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
That's the point. Someone like Liston couldn't put to sleep a virtually blind person? As Stanislavskiy said "I don't believe it".
Exactly. Why would someone who's supposivly throwing a fight, blind the other fighter and try desperatly to knock him out? You were right to quote me cause it don't make since my man.



Quote:
Foremans punches were heavier, but they weren't harder, if you know what I mean. Foreman scored very few one-punch knockdowns or knockouts. He couldn't convert his raw power into power of impact properly, not enough handspeed/accuracy/timing.
you are the first person I've ever met that would argue this. But I will agree with you, Foreman did possess raw power and he did not need any of that other **** to make use of it.

Did you ever see Lewis do to ANYONE, as Foreman had done to Frazier? Norton? ****ey? Lyle? Moorer? No, Lewis never ever displayed such force or power in any of his ko's. There is a reason Foreman is considered the heaviest puncher of all time and not Lewis.


Quote:
Very few of his punches to the head actually land, and those that did, were softened/amortized.
I thought Ali had a flawed defense? Even against somebody who does telegraph like Foreman, to lay on the ropes and repel or slip punches of that calibre and take the shots that land is more impressive than anything Lewis ever did


Quote:
There offense was completely different. Lewis wasn't trying to just hurt you, wear you down, he tried to score effectively, inflict as much damage as he could with as few power punches as possible, he was a boxer-puncher more than a slugger/power-puncher young Foreman was.
exactly you're proving my point. In order to beat Ali you must apply constant pressure, none of which is even hinted at in you're ****yisis of his style. Not only that, Lewis was not a pressure fighter. He never was never will be. He was a cautious, calculating, boxer puncher. Bad match up my brotha.


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The difference is clear on film. I have almost complete Lewis career (only one fight missing; plus several his amateur fights) and over a dozen of Liston fights, it's clear as daylight Lewis was considerably faster with hands and on feet.
Possibly he is, but it's not enough to be a deciding factor, and not really a sound argument to debate about.


Quote:
How many punches did Ali need to knock people down or out? How many clean knockouts did he score with 1 or 2-3 punches? How many times he was unable to rid of opponents at all or it took him a lot of rounds and a lot of punishment to stop his opponents, who were not known for having a solid chin?
Ali didn't have to possess dynamite hands to put people away. His mixture of handspeed, footwork, and agility did all that. Further more You're not looking at prime Ali 64-67. who was something like 29-0 with 24 knockouts, just a good of ko ratio if not better than Lewis's. Nice Ko resume no matter how he took them out, he still did it. You're trying to bend the rules and make it sound as if a stoppage isn't a stoppage if it aint a flat out ko, but Ali possessed so many tools outside power that is simply wasn't a problem for him.


Quote:
Ali landed several tens of clean hooks and crosses to Foreman's chin, George just kept going forward. Only after Foreman punched himself out, Ali was able to put him down.
Lewis was landed several tens of clean hooks and crosses on an equally fatigued Ray Mercer, and absolutly could NOT put him down. And the fight even lasted longer!


Quote:
Frazier was a swarmer, also with heavy, but not very hard punch. How many 1 or 2-3 punch knockdowns or knockouts can you remember from Frazier? Not counting the examples, where he previously wore the opponent down with bunches of punches.
Ugh.......Foster, Quarry, Ellis, Ali, Zygliwits, Machen, should I go on?

But what do you meen 'without wearing them down'??? How many right off the bat ko's did Lewis have where he didn't have to 'wear down' his opponent in some way. Nearly all ko's are a form of that, one fighter somehow 'wearing down' the other then stopping them. Very few right off the bat ko's such as Foreman-Frazier 1 and Klitcko-Sanders type ko's happen, very rare. How many does lewis have?


Quote:
Sorry, but Ali had tens of times to showcase such ability, but failed miserably.
Well I'm sorry, but Lewis had just a few times to showcase he chin and it failed EVERY TIME. Gimmee a break, you trying to degrade Ali's skill just because he (according to you) had less than an average HW punch? Get real. I'd say Lewis' dentable chin is far more a factor. Let us not forget Ali makes up for this with speed, agility, and raw talent. I'd take a fighter with a weak punch and all that, tha, a strong one witha dubious chin anyday.


Quote:
Lewis exploits Ali's flawed defense, like several other fighters did, who were much inferior to Lewis in both skills and power, and puts him to sleep.
What several other fighters exploited Ali's so called 'flawed defense'? Lemme guess......Jones and Cooper right? Sure they landed good ones just like Rahman and McCall did. But Ali got up and won.




Did Lewis?
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:37 PM   #84
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis v Muhammad Ali

Senya I'm gonna pay Lewis a compliment. His chin doesn't have as much glass as Roy Jones

There are chins worse then Lewis but his was not great
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:40 PM   #85
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis v Muhammad Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by quintonjacksonfan
. The only champion with a worse chin then Lewis

is Roy Jones.

It seems unlikely to me that the Heavyweight champ of the world could have a genuinely dodgey chin.

How does he absorb shots from the likes of Tyson, Klitschko, Hollyfield etc. etc., with a weak chin?
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:42 PM   #86
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis v Muhammad Ali

And if you want to use age vs age Senya, lets turn it around.

Ali won the title when he was somthing like 21. Lewis wasn't even a professional fighter untill he was 24! So I guess we can say since a 40 year old Lewis beats a 40 year old Ali. Then what do you think a 21 Year old Ali would do to Lewis who's 3 years older and still an amateur? lol
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:43 PM   #87
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis v Muhammad Ali

Tyson was 15 years past his prime. How did McBribe take his punches

Holyfield was never that big a puncher to begin with at heavyweight and in my opinion was never

the same after the Bowe trilogy. People thought he was back because he beat the overated

Mike Tyson Klitschko did hurt Lewis and if the fight would of continued I think Lewis would

of been knocked out. Lewis never beat a Hall of Famer in his prime but lost to a crack addict in his

prime
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:45 PM   #88
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis v Muhammad Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi
Lewis was still very much a work in progress under Emanuel Steward when he fought Mercer in 1996. I'm pretty sure Steward and Lewis would clarify this themselves.

Lewis was an average fighter inside, and only during certain moments did he like to be there. Like stepping in to throw an uppercut. It was not an area of his game where he felt comfortable. He always liked to have a bit distance to dictate his opponent with the jab, and long right hand.

Holyfield took 6 rounds during the rematch to get inside Lewis' reach, and when he did, he had success. I'm not saying Ali was better inside than Lewis, because Ali himself liked to tie his opponents up inside then push them off to create distance again to be effective. You could say that Ali had success against Foreman inside at times, but only when he leaned back on the ropes to get distance and leverage on his punches, with the right hand hitting its target many times.

Ali was caught many times from the outside by Norton during their first fight, as he timed his jabs to perfection while advancing. I feel Lewis would have success if he boxed aggressively against Ali, but not necessarily looking to get close. Timing would be the key for Lewis against Ali.
Ali was caught many times from distance v Norton, but lets be honest, the Ali 2nd time around, was not the same talent.
He was smarter possibly, but not as gifted athletically, and he'd, IMO, have battered Norton earlier in his career.

Lewis was being dictated to by Frank Bruno, fight 1 v Rahman and by Mercer, because they could jab with Lewis.
I really think the speed differential ofsets anything Lewis has to hurt Ali, as he wouldnt get to use it.

Ali was also strong enough to tie Lewis up, and not be hanhandled in the clinch, as Lennox liked to do.

I honestly could see Lewis beating Ali if they fought 10 times, if we are talking both fighters at their optimum.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:46 PM   #89
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis v Muhammad Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by quintonjacksonfan
Tyson was 15 years past his prime. How did McBribe take his punches

Holyfield was never that big a puncher to begin with at heavyweight.

Klitschko did hurt Lewis and if the fight would of continued I think Lewis would

of been knocked out

I don't think it's sensible to try to discredit every puncher a dominant heavyweght champ has faced.

I also don't think is sensible to speculate about a fight that ended decisivley in favour of one fighter as being a robbery against the other.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:52 PM   #90
quintonjacksonfan
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis v Muhammad Ali

The version of Tyson that Lewis fought was no better then the version

that faced Williams and McBride. The version of Holyfield that Lewis fought

was slightly better then the one Toney faced. Lewis was in no hurry

to give Klitschko a rematch either
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