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Old 06-06-2011, 02:48 AM   #76
Koa
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Default Re: add clay guida to the lay and pray list.

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Originally Posted by Flash Jab View Post
I do get it, I understand the art of fighting off your back, but Pettis doesn't get a draw nevermind a win in this fight. Being taken down in every round is the reason he lost. If he started every round and went to the ground to try and bait Guida in and then it went from there? Then you'd have a point. Credit to him for his guard, and well done on all the submission attempts and even getting Guida on his back. But what did Guida do? He reversed it. Thing was, Pettis' was more-so because Guida rolled too far, Guida reversed his with skill. He still landed some minor ground and pound.

I can't continue this discussion, I really can't. There's numerous people on this page alone that think it was even. Fair enough, it was a chess match on the ground and Guida didn't dominate him, but he controlled him on the ground for 3 rounds and got it to the mat. All this bullshit of "he didn't try to finish the fight" is ridiculous. He tried to pass numerous times, what do you do if you can't? You don't play to your opponents ****ing strengths and keep it standing, you do as much damage as you can in the best position you can get to. And what was he doing in the last ****ing round for **** sake! He got his back!

Boggles my ****ing mind how people score a fight. It really does. Pettis didn't want it on the ground, he merely decided it was in his best interests to try and get a submission for 3 rounds rather than get up. Hate to break it to you, but unless the guy is doing a significant amount of damage off his back and gets close submissions (I mean, like Dan Hardy-esque) and possibly manages to get his opponent on his back, he isn't winning the fight. Not on my card, not on UFC's, not on Pride's. Absolutely ridiculous.

You clumsily forget that Guida never once attempted to finish the fight. You need to keep in mind that these are supposed to be fights.

What happens in a fight? Does attempting to finish the fight via maiming or knockout come to mind?

A takedown, like a single or double is a tool used to take a guy down to a position where you can finish a fight no? Now if you suplex or slam a guy then that might be an attempt to finish a fight.

Now tell me when Guida attempted to finish the fight.
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Old 06-06-2011, 02:50 AM   #77
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Default Re: add clay guida to the lay and pray list.

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Originally Posted by Koa View Post
You clumsily forget that Guida never once attempted to finish the fight. You need to keep in mind that these are supposed to be fights.

What happens in a fight? Does attempting to finish the fight via maiming or knockout come to mind?

A takedown, like a single or double is a tool used to take a guy down to a position where you can finish a fight no? Now if you suplex or slam a guy then that might be an attempt to finish a fight.

Now tell me when Guida attempted to finish the fight.
Who the **** tries to finish a fight when they're in guard? He was punching him in the head and trying to pass TO finish the fight. That's usually the method the fighter on the top takes, they don't try to finish a fight in guard, you pass and then make your move. When it came that he couldn't pass, he did his best to do damage from that position.
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:18 AM   #78
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Default Re: add clay guida to the lay and pray list.

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You buy into the idea that mount equates to control.

Mount is generally the dominant position, but you need to do certain things to ensure it is. There are quite a few guys who fight so well from their backs and maintain wrist control so well, they actually are able to control from the guard.

If you don't understand this, you don't get it.
Hey, ground fighting wiz, mount does equate control. However, Guida was having trouble getting the mount. What you keep calling "mount" is actually being in someone's guard.

Guida was able to close the distance, put the fight on the ground where he wanted, defended every sub attempt, and dished out the heavier strikes on the ground. Guida clearly won a competitive fight. Any other conclusion is full of bias, and sounds completely fanboyish.
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:19 AM   #79
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Default Re: add clay guida to the lay and pray list.

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Who the **** tries to finish a fight when they're in guard? He was punching him in the head and trying to pass TO finish the fight. That's usually the method the fighter on the top takes, they don't try to finish a fight in guard, you pass and then make your move. When it came that he couldn't pass, he did his best to do damage from that position.
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Old 06-06-2011, 09:22 AM   #80
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Default Re: add clay guida to the lay and pray list.

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Originally Posted by Flash Jab View Post
Who the **** tries to finish a fight when they're in guard? He was punching him in the head and trying to pass TO finish the fight. That's usually the method the fighter on the top takes, they don't try to finish a fight in guard, you pass and then make your move. When it came that he couldn't pass, he did his best to do damage from that position.
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Originally Posted by rekcutnevets View Post
Hey, ground fighting wiz, mount does equate control. However, Guida was having trouble getting the mount. What you keep calling "mount" is actually being in someone's guard.

Guida was able to close the distance, put the fight on the ground where he wanted, defended every sub attempt, and dished out the heavier strikes on the ground. Guida clearly won a competitive fight. Any other conclusion is full of bias, and sounds completely fanboyish.
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:13 AM   #81
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Default Re: add clay guida to the lay and pray list.

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Hey, ground fighting wiz, mount does equate control. However, Guida was having trouble getting the mount. What you keep calling "mount" is actually being in someone's guard.

Guida was able to close the distance, put the fight on the ground where he wanted, defended every sub attempt, and dished out the heavier strikes on the ground. Guida clearly won a competitive fight. Any other conclusion is full of bias, and sounds completely fanboyish.


Depends on what language you are using. If you are in mount then that is one way of understanding full mount. Otherwise people also tend to talk about it in terms of being in half mount, or half guard for example. It simply depends on how you want to talk about it. People talk about it both ways.

I'm not disputing mount positions tend to be dominant. It's true for most fighters but not all and if you have been watching MMA for a while you know this about guys who utilize the rubber guard effectively, or guys who maintain very good wrist control from the bottom, they actually are the ones in control of the grappling on the ground. You usually only see this with very high level bjj guys, or very lanky guys.

I'd agree with you if Guida had Pettis in trouble with his strikes. Guida's has an established M.O. where he does grind and land effective strikes, and eventually he will get a guys back and rnc, sometimes an arm triangle. He didn't do this at all.

Most of his passes were based on Pettis' submission misses. Pettis was actually able to improve position quite a lot, and control Guida's wrists while attempting subs and taking virtually no damage which showed me he was in control.

Now, if Guida were avoiding subs, keeping position and ****ing Pettis up then no doubt, he would be in control but he didn't inflict any damage and he didn't attempt any subs. If you are going to judge based on damage, then you should consider aspects of control and have a better understanding of the dynamic of passing guard.

Ultimately if you have to avoid a sub just about every time you go from someones full guard to their half guard, and they are easily getting you back into full guard while you are not inflicting any real damage, you should be in trouble and it's a clear show that you are not in control.

Otherwise, what is the point in even trying to go for a sub from guard? It's wiser to tie up/ stall and hope for the ref to stand you up.. What kind of fighting is this shit?

This aspect is currently one of the major holes in MMA, and one of the major holes in people's take on ground fighting.
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