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Old 12-01-2007, 02:02 AM   #1
dmt
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Default Billy Miske deserved a title shot

i saw someone claim that Miske was an undeserving challenger because he was sick and had a few losses coming into the fight. Here's why Miske deserved a shot: even after losing to Dempsey he did so much.

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after losing the title fight vs Dempsey Miske went on to win something like 22 fights including wins over:

Charlie Weniert (who went on to beat Jack Sharkey and Fripo, pretty decent contender)

Jack Renault ( beat guys like Godfrey and Fulton)

Bill Brennan, Fulton and Gibbons
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Old 12-01-2007, 07:07 AM   #2
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

Those classic fighters sure were lucky to have the benefit that back then you could receive a title shot based on what you were gonna do after that titleshot, so that your current losing streak doesn't really matter.
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Old 12-01-2007, 07:12 AM   #3
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

Didn't he have just one single win in five previous fights? That being over a guy that averaged one win to 5 losses or draws! How in the hell does that earn a shot.
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Old 12-01-2007, 07:13 AM   #4
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Those classic fighters sure were lucky to have the benefit that back then you could receive a title shot based on what you were gonna do after that titleshot, so that your current losing streak doesn't really matter.
Again you are failing to look through the fog and see what was hapening on the ground at the time.

While Dempsey had already beaten Miske twice both the fights had been close with Dempsey narrowly taking a newspaper decision. In the eyes of the public he owed Miske a title shot more than he owed Harry Wills one.

Now in a hundred years time people will look at wlad Klitschkos recent win over Lamon Brewster and say-

"What was the point"?

On the ground at the time we knew exactly what the point was.

In a hundred years time people might look at boxrec and ask why Lennox Lewis fought Michael Grant when there were more deserving contenders out there like Chris Byrd and John Ruiz. They will not see the climate that lead to those fights taking place or not taking place.
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Old 12-01-2007, 07:21 AM   #5
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Again you are failing to look through the fog and see what was hapening on the ground at the time.

While Dempsey had already beaten Miske twice both the fights had been close with Dempsey narrowly taking a newspaper decision. In the eyes of the public he owed Miske a title shot more than he owed Harry Wills one.

Now in a hundred years time people will look at wlad Klitschkos recent win over Lamon Brewster and say-

"What was the point"?

On the ground at the time we knew exactly what the point was.

In a hundred years time people might look at boxrec and ask why Lennox Lewis fought Michael Grant when there were more deserving contenders out there like Chris Byrd and John Ruiz. They will not see the climate that lead to those fights taking place or not taking place.
Brewster had lost just one of his previous ten, in a title defense where he forced the challenger to take the canvas. It's hardly akin to having just one win in your previous five over a guy walked over as often as a doormat.

When Grant fought Lewis he was 31-0 with more ko's than one can poke a stick at. He'd also beat Goltoa the fight before and was very hyped. Again, massive differences.
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Old 12-01-2007, 07:26 AM   #6
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Brewster had lost just one of his previous ten, in a title defense where he forced the challenger to take the canvas. It's hardly akin to having just one win in your previous five over a guy walked over as often as a doormat.

When Grant fought Lewis he was 31-0 with more ko's than one can poke a stick at. He'd also beat Goltoa the fight before and was very hyped. Again, massive differences.
In addition to that, Brewster knocked out Klitschko while being dominated. Those are the kind of fights you want to see rematches to.

I do think Janitor has a point, but avenging a win when the fighter in question at that time has a mediocre record is not the best thing you can do. I don't think it's unforgiveable at all, for instance Ali had some soft touches on his record as well as Joe Louis, but at least they were active and fighting the best. Dempsey was neither of those. That is when these kind of fights start making you look bad.
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Old 12-01-2007, 07:32 AM   #7
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Brewster had lost just one of his previous ten, in a title defense where he forced the challenger to take the canvas. It's hardly akin to having just one win in your previous five over a guy walked over as often as a doormat.
Again we have the good old boxrec analysis.

A fighter can loose a few fights in a row against tough competitors and still be regarded as a significant oponent, especialy today.

Quote:
When Grant fought Lewis he was 31-0 with more ko's than one can poke a stick at. He'd also beat Goltoa the fight before and was very hyped. Again, massive differences.
We know that but our boxrec warrior in a hundred years time will look over his record and say-

"He was a bum. He had one significant win and apart from that did nothing. He was a soft touch in an era where there were far more deserving contenders".
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Old 12-01-2007, 07:45 AM   #8
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

[quote=janitor]
Quote:


Again we have the good old boxrec analysis.

A fighter can loose a few fights in a row against tough competitors and still be regarded as a significant oponent, especialy today.
Ok, so tell me what fighters today have lost a few in a row yet were still regarded as significant opponents? Even more so, who today has lost a few in a row and been considered a worthy challenger for the world title?? Even with the numerous titles about you will be severely tested here.

Quote:
We know that but our boxrec warrior in a hundred years time will look over his record and say-

"He was a bum. He had one significant win and apart from that did nothing. He was a soft touch in an era where there were far more deserving contenders".
Our boxrec warrior will see 31 wins and no losses, with many many early ko's. He will see a hammering of Golota right before fighting Lewis. He will see the only people Goltoa had ever lost to where Bowe and Lewis.

Our boxrec warrior will see Miske's utterly terrible record leading into the Dempsey fight and just scratch their head. No comparison sorry.
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Old 12-01-2007, 08:09 AM   #9
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

[quote]
[quote=JohnThomas1]
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor

Ok, so tell me what fighters today have lost a few in a row yet were still regarded as significant opponents?
How do you establish that he lost a few in a row?

His last three fights were a win and two draws. In that period a draw was often issued if a fight went the distence automaticaly.

I would add that the two losses preceeding that are newspaper decisions that some papers might have scored the other way.

Quote:
Our boxrec warrior will see 31 wins and no losses, with many many early ko's.
All over men he has never heard of. Therfore they are all crap.

Quote:
He will see a hammering of Golota right before fighting Lewis. He will see the only people Goltoa had ever lost to where Bowe and Lewis.
One fluke win in an otherwise mediocre career.

Who is Golotta anyway?

Iis he the Charlie Weinert of his era or something.
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Old 12-01-2007, 08:20 AM   #10
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

[quote=janitor][quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1

How do you establish that he lost a few in a row?


This is what YOU said

Quote:
A fighter can loose a few fights in a row against tough competitors and still be regarded as a significant oponent, especialy today.
I responded! I asked you to back up your statement, and said nothing whatsoever about Miske losing a few in a row.

Quote:
All over men he has never heard of. Therfore they are all crap.
Well at least he was beating them, Miske wasn't even doing that!!!!

Quote:
One fluke win in an otherwise mediocre career.

Who is Golotta anyway?

Iis he the Charlie Weinert of his era or something.
Grant come back from two kd's in the first to win via stoppage. That you deem it a fluke says it all. He also has some middle class wins. I'd hardly call his 31-0 and world title shot a mediocre career, especially when compared to habitual losers like Miske. At one stage he must have wondered where in the hell his next win was ever going to come from. Of course he solved that by taking on the pitiful Moran, 3-13-2. He'd lost 5 in a row before Miske took him on, overall career record of 3-21-2. No doubt he'd have won a strap in the modern era tho

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Old 12-01-2007, 08:45 AM   #11
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor

Who is Golotta anyway?

Iis he the Charlie Weinert of his era or something.
No, he's the George Godfrey of his era, but then, Dempsey avoided him as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
One fluke win in an otherwise mediocre career.
No, it is a legit win over a top guy who had only lost to an all time great (Lennox Lewis) and beat the living shit out of Bowe twice, who at that point was among the best heavyweights in the world.

And apart from that he beat a lot of nobodies. That didn't stop you from ranking Fulton or Gibbons high.
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Old 12-01-2007, 08:54 AM   #12
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
No, he's the George Godfrey of his era, but then, Dempsey avoided him as well.
How exactly do you avoid sombody who is ranked at #8?

Quote:
No, it is a legit win over a top guy who had only lost to an all time great (Lennox Lewis) and beat the living shit out of Bowe twice, who at that point was among the best heavyweights in the world.
I have been looking at Golottas record on boxrec and it says nothing about him beating the living sh1t out of Bowe. It says that he lost to him twice, (presumably he fouled out because he was loosing).

It seems that Golotta was an OK fighter who lost every time he steped up in competition but nothing special.

What is his biggest win?

Quote:
And apart from that he beat a lot of nobodies. That didn't stop you from ranking Fulton or Gibbons high.
They beat name fighters of their era.

Golotta did not.

Therfore boxrec says that he is a nobody.
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Old 12-01-2007, 08:58 AM   #13
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Well at least he was beating them, Miske wasn't even doing that!!!!
Highly debatable.

I know that some newspapers scored at leat one of those fights for Miske.

Quote:
Grant come back from two kd's in the first to win via stoppage. That you deem it a fluke says it all. He also has some middle class wins.
Dempsey has some middle class wins over people that you have never heard of.

Quote:
I'd hardly call his 31-0 and world title shot a mediocre career,
Looking back on boxrec 100 years later who did he beat?

Where is there a name that a boxing fan like yourself 100 years from now would recognise?

They would all be losses.
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Old 12-01-2007, 09:07 AM   #14
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

[quote=janitor]
Quote:


Highly debatable.

I know that some newspapers scored at leat one of those fights for Miske.
Still does nothing toward deserving a title shot. Looking a bit deeper here has really opened up my eyes to the devious doings of the era. Miske should not have been in that ring, and Dempsey freezing the title for 3 years is an utter disgrace.

Quote:
Dempsey has some middle class wins over people that you have never heard of.
And Grant over people you have obviously not head of. Where Dempsey lacks is in top class wins. As has now been shown.

Quote:
Looking back on boxrec 100 years later who did he beat?

Where is there a name that a boxing fan like yourself 100 years from now would recognise?

They would all be losses.
That attitude is sad. You think the warriors will know the mugs from Miske's record? They are wins for Grant, Miske is the one that has the losses leading into a title shot. It's right there in black and white. At least the boxrec warriors can see that Grant was a very winning fighter, which is more than one can say for that Miske character. Talk about a free shot, and guys like Wills were denied. Jesus Christ
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Old 12-01-2007, 09:57 AM   #15
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmt
i saw someone claim that Miske was an undeserving challenger because he was sick and had a few losses coming into the fight. Here's why Miske deserved a shot: even after losing to Dempsey he did so much.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

after losing the title fight vs Dempsey Miske went on to win something like 22 fights including wins over:

Charlie Weniert (who went on to beat Jack Sharkey and Fripo, pretty decent contender)

Jack Renault ( beat guys like Godfrey and Fulton)

Bill Brennan, Fulton and Gibbons
I can only assume that this thread was started so you could try and gain some support for the despute on the other thread. It doesn't seem to be working.
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