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Old 12-01-2007, 10:21 AM   #16
My dinner with Conteh
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

Miske possibly did deserve a shot, but Dempsey's team had pencilled in a fight with Fred Fulton 'if he were to beat Harry Wills' for the autumn of 1920. Shortly before this it was reported that Dempsey had agreed to drop his 'drawing of the colour line'. But then Wills iced Fulton, Banana Sam iced him and, of course, the best laid plans of mice and er...mice had gone awry.
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:28 AM   #17
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor


How exactly do you avoid sombody who is ranked at #8?
He was ranked #4 in 1925 and was ranked in the top10 for 3 consecutive years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I have been looking at Golottas record on boxrec and it says nothing about him beating the living sh1t out of Bowe. It says that he lost to him twice, (presumably he fouled out because he was loosing).
Next time take a better look at Boxrec, because it says this:

Bowe-Golota I:
Bowe came into this fight as a reknowned champ; Golota as a relative unknown "Great White Hope." What unfolded was a night of high drama as Bowe was taught a boxing lesson with Golota punching him round the ring as if it were Bowe who was the novice. Unfortunately Golota was penalised for repeated low blows. It seemed a little unfair as Bowe too was guilty of dirty fighting. Golota was very good at acting dumb and his nonchalant reaction to having points deducted by the referee either displayed a belief that he would either win by KO, or that he held Bowe in supreme contempt. Or both. Whichever, it made for pulsating viewing. The referee had enough by Round Seven as Bowe was sent crashing to the canvas yet again with a big uppercut to the balls and disqualified Golota. If that wasn't sensational enough, Golota was then attacked by one of Bowe's corner men as he walked back to the corner, being smashed on the head with a mobile cellphone which seemed to shatter on the Pole's crown. Golota's reaction was to instantly swing round and smash the much lighter man in the face, instigating a free for all in the ring. Within seconds the ring was packed like sardines with various bodies throwing punches and [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], Golota's promoter, was seen lying in the ring, the victim of a heart attack. It was all too much for the crowd who then turned on each other with large numbers of fight fans attacking each other with whatever they could get their hands on, including the auditorium chairs. It seemed to be racially fueled as the predominantly white following of Golota clashed with the mainly black Bowe supporters. The event was poorly policed and thousands of pounds worth of damage was caused. This incident was named [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] magazine [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] for 1996.

Bowe-Golota II:

  • Weights: Bowe 235, Golota 239
  • Bowe down in 2nd and 5th; Golota down in 4th.
  • Golota, while clearly winning the fight, was again disqualified for repeated low blows. Golota had 3 points deducted.
  • Referee: Eddie Cotton
  • Judge: Steve Weisfeld 71-75 | Judge: Shafeeq Rashada 73-75 | Judge: Al DeVito 72-74
  • After this bout Bowe was inactive from 1997-2003.
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
It seems that Golotta was an OK fighter who lost every time he steped up in competition but nothing special.

What is his biggest win?
On film you can see how talented and fluid Golota is. He doesn't really have a good win but as said before, he beat the shit out of Bowe twice and a more merciful corner/referee would've stopped the second fight anywhere past the 5th, i seriously thought Bowe might die in there, especially with the quick weight loss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
They beat name fighters of their era.

Golotta did not.

Therfore boxrec says that he is a nobody.
Yeah, well we have additional information so no need to be a hard head. Nothing suggests that Miske was like Golota.
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:38 AM   #18
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

[quote]
[quote=JohnThomas1]
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Still does nothing toward deserving a title shot.
I think it was a viable choice given the unfinished business angle. Also consider that Dempseys team might not have known about Miskes condition. He probably did not advertise it for obvious reasons.

Quote:
Looking a bit deeper here has really opened up my eyes to the devious doings of the era. Miske should not have been in that ring, and Dempsey freezing the title for 3 years is an utter disgrace.
I tend to agree on both points.

Quote:
And Grant over people you have obviously not head of. Where Dempsey lacks is in top class wins. As has now been shown.
Personaly I think Grant is under rated. Putting my personal view aside I expect Lewis to be piloried for this title defense in 100 years.

Quote:
That attitude is sad. You think the warriors will know the mugs from Miske's record? They are wins for Grant, Miske is the one that has the losses leading into a title shot. It's right there in black and white. At least the boxrec warriors can see that Grant was a very winning fighter, which is more than one can say for that Miske character. Talk about a free shot,
What Miske will have over Grant and for that matter many modern contenders is a number of wins over the guys recognised as the best heavyweights of his era.
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:43 AM   #19
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
He was ranked #4 in 1925 and was ranked in the top10 for 3 consecutive years.
No case to answer

1925
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Quote:
Next time take a better look at Boxrec, because it says this:

Bowe-Golota I:
Bowe came into this fight as a reknowned champ; Golota as a relative unknown "Great White Hope." What unfolded was a night of high drama as Bowe was taught a boxing lesson with Golota punching him round the ring as if it were Bowe who was the novice. Unfortunately Golota was penalised for repeated low blows. It seemed a little unfair as Bowe too was guilty of dirty fighting. Golota was very good at acting dumb and his nonchalant reaction to having points deducted by the referee either displayed a belief that he would either win by KO, or that he held Bowe in supreme contempt. Or both. Whichever, it made for pulsating viewing. The referee had enough by Round Seven as Bowe was sent crashing to the canvas yet again with a big uppercut to the balls and disqualified Golota. If that wasn't sensational enough, Golota was then attacked by one of Bowe's corner men as he walked back to the corner, being smashed on the head with a mobile cellphone which seemed to shatter on the Pole's crown. Golota's reaction was to instantly swing round and smash the much lighter man in the face, instigating a free for all in the ring. Within seconds the ring was packed like sardines with various bodies throwing punches and [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], Golota's promoter, was seen lying in the ring, the victim of a heart attack. It was all too much for the crowd who then turned on each other with large numbers of fight fans attacking each other with whatever they could get their hands on, including the auditorium chairs. It seemed to be racially fueled as the predominantly white following of Golota clashed with the mainly black Bowe supporters. The event was poorly policed and thousands of pounds worth of damage was caused. This incident was named [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] magazine [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] for 1996.

Bowe-Golota II:
  • Weights: Bowe 235, Golota 239
  • Bowe down in 2nd and 5th; Golota down in 4th.
  • Golota, while clearly winning the fight, was again disqualified for repeated low blows. Golota had 3 points deducted.
  • Referee: Eddie Cotton
  • Judge: Steve Weisfeld 71-75 | Judge: Shafeeq Rashada 73-75 | Judge: Al DeVito 72-74
  • After this bout Bowe was inactive from 1997-2003.
On film you can see how talented and fluid Golota is. He doesn't really have a good win but as said before, he beat the shit out of Bowe twice and a more merciful corner/referee would've stopped the second fight anywhere past the 5th, i seriously thought Bowe might die in there, especially with the quick weight loss.
Me too.

While boxrec has in fact done a good job of covering these fights you can see my point.

What if it just said Bowe win DQ by both fights?

There are a lot of fights like that on boxrec from Dempseys era.

Quote:
Yeah, well we have additional information so no need to be a hard head. Nothing suggests that Miske was like Golota.
Again it is not my personal view that Golotta is a nobody.

I am just arguing that he could come to be perceived that way in 100 years.
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Old 12-01-2007, 11:03 AM   #20
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

[quote=janitor][quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1

I think it was a viable choice given the unfinished business angle.
I can see the point.

Quote:
I tend to agree on both points.


Quote:
Personaly I think Grant is under rated. Putting my personal view aside I expect Lewis to be piloried for this title defense in 100 years.
Agreed on the first, but guaranteed Lewis won't be criticised.

Quote:
What Miske will have over Grant and for that matter many modern contenders is a number of wins over the guys recognised as the best heavyweights of his era.
They're already mostly forgotten, let alone in decades to come. Lewis has Tyson and Holyfield on his record. He can't go wrong.
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Old 12-01-2007, 12:30 PM   #21
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Again you are failing to look through the fog and see what was hapening on the ground at the time.

While Dempsey had already beaten Miske twice both the fights had been close with Dempsey narrowly taking a newspaper decision. In the eyes of the public he owed Miske a title shot more than he owed Harry Wills one.

Now in a hundred years time people will look at wlad Klitschkos recent win over Lamon Brewster and say-

"What was the point"?

On the ground at the time we knew exactly what the point was.

In a hundred years time people might look at boxrec and ask why Lennox Lewis fought Michael Grant when there were more deserving contenders out there like Chris Byrd and John Ruiz. They will not see the climate that lead to those fights taking place or not taking place.
Dempsey hadn't beaten Miske twice. Both were no decision bouts. The first went ten rounds and was generally judged a draw. Dempsey had a slight edge in the second, a six round affair.

Many old-timers up in St Paul when I was a kid claimed that Miske had the edge in the 10 round fight. I would say that Miske was unfinished business for Dempsey.
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:00 PM   #22
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

Dempsey did not avoid Godfrey, he was a sparring partner for Dempsey for some time and never considered as significant contender as either Wills or Tunney. That's why Dempsey agreed for a fight with Wills but it never happened and then he fought Tunney.
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:09 PM   #23
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmt
Dempsey did not avoid Godfrey, he was a sparring partner for Dempsey for some time and never considered as significant contender as either Wills or Tunney.
One of whom he avoided, while losing to the other.
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:11 PM   #24
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woddy
One of whom he avoided, while losing to the other.
u r so biased. Yes Wills did not get a shot but he was not necessarily "avoided". And i must have said it a thousand times that he was well past his prime when he fought Tunney
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:11 PM   #25
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woddy
One of whom he avoided, while losing to the other.
For the last time.

Godfrey was ranked at #8 when Dempsey champion. Acusing Dempsey of ducking Godfrey is more than a stretch.

Did he avoid charlie Chaplin as well?

I mean he was around tha the time.
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:22 PM   #26
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmt
u r so biased.
I beg your pardon?

You're the one who for the past week has gotten his undies in a bundle over this issue no matter how many times and how many posters have refuted your arguments. Perhaps if you were a little less "biased", then maybe you'd start to develop a more balanced view instead of holding your course on a futile mission to make Dempsey look better than he really was.

Last edited by oztriker; 10-15-2006 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:24 PM   #27
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
For the last time.

Godfrey was ranked at #8 when Dempsey champion. Acusing Dempsey of ducking Godfrey is more than a stretch.

Did he avoid charlie Chaplin as well?

I mean he was around tha the time.
Read the previous post that I responded to, rather than constantly planning your next attack. I was referring to Wills and Tunney, not Godfrey.
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:37 PM   #28
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

[quote=janitor]
Quote:


No case to answer

1925
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Me too.

While boxrec has in fact done a good job of covering these fights you can see my point.

What if it just said Bowe win DQ by both fights?

There are a lot of fights like that on boxrec from Dempseys era.



Again it is not my personal view that Golotta is a nobody.

I am just arguing that he could come to be perceived that way in 100 years.
You printed the 1924 ratings as the 1925 ratings.
These are the 1925 ratings:
1-champion--Jack Dempsey
2. Harry Wills
3. Gene Tunney
4. Jack Renault
5. Bud Gorman
6. George Godfrey
7. Jack Sharkey
8. Bob Fitzsimmons
9. Paulino Uzcudun
10. Jim Maloney

With the champion taking the number one position in those days, Renault is actually the #3 contender.

Renault lost twice each to Greb and Miske in the early twenties, but went on a tear after being stopped by Miske in 13 in Jan of 1922. In 1923 he knocked out George Godfrey, Fred Fulton, and Floyd Johnson, and certainly established himself as a worthy contender. Frankly, I wonder why he wasn't given a shot. He seems a better contender than Brennan, for example.
Renault probably dropped quite a bit in the ratings because of his upset loss to Romero-Rojas in Dec of 1924, his first loss since Miske.
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:42 PM   #29
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

[quote]
[quote=OLD FOGEY]
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
You printed the 1924 ratings as the 1925 ratings.
Obviously so

Even having said that Renault only got into the top 5 in Dempseys last year as champion and was clearly behind both Gene Tunney and Harry Wills in the que.

He might have got a shot if Dempsey had beaten Tunney.
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Old 12-01-2007, 04:39 PM   #30
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Default Re: Billy Miske deserved a title shot

Miske deserved a title shot, sure. Should he have been one of the only ones, probably not. But he was a good fighter and there was history there.
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