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Old 02-07-2011, 03:45 PM   #46
choklab
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Default Re: Dempsey kos Wills in 2 rounds 1924

Anyone who thinks dempsey ducked wills is a hindsight hero. during dempseys reighn his sparring partner big bill tate drew with wills for the black heavyweight title, both claimed the "title", ok wills beat tate clearly before hand but it shows wills was not any kind of threat at that time.

I think when Argentina's firpo was the second biggest draw in boxing, drawing 80,000 fans to his fights in dempseys country this was a bigger threat to his title.

Now, I am not a hindsight hero, we all NOW know firpo was easy meat for jack- but nobody knew that before hand. The people knew before hand that wills drew with dempseys sparring fodder and they later knew wills could not (and did not) decisivly beat firpo AFTER dempsey had done with him.

With hindsight you can look back NOW and say, "oh, look who jack missed out" but back then it was "has he got a chance with the champ? how many seats will he sell?" and back when the fight was ACTUALY viable the answer was "wills only got a draw against the champs sparring partner and he fights in empty barns"

Last edited by choklab; 02-07-2011 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 02-07-2011, 05:59 PM   #47
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Default Re: Dempsey kos Wills in 2 rounds 1924

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Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
You're mistaken. We had a disagreement, but neither of us insulted each other for it.

There were plenty of people picking Floyd Patterson, including Jack Dempsey. I guess he didn't know what he was talking about. The point is, if Liston didn't go onto knock Patterson out, all we could do is talk whether he could have done this or that. But he went and did it, and so it is. Dempsey can't claim imaginary wins over Harry Wills or Harry Greb or Gene Tunney.

You're getting your facts wrong again. Langford's sight didn't go until after the Fulton bout. Langford never won a fight against Wills after that. Wills was only legitimately stopped 4 times, twice by Langford (in the 19th and 14th rounds), once by Uzcudun (when Wills was 38 years old) and once very early on in his career.

Basically you're going by a film of Wills when he was simply put ancient for a boxer of those times. A late 1910's/early 1920's Wills would have been a different proposition.

Point 1 - I didn't say either of you directly insulted the other (althought I would suspect like me Burt probably finds your whole viewpoint on this a little insulting to the memory of a truly great fighter) I simply said he doesn't what I'd call respect your views because he spending so much very very frustrated sounding reponse time in tearing your opinions to shreds - so, with respect you are the one who is mistaken

Point 2 - PLenty of people in America may have been picking (or rather wanting) Floyd to somehow win - NO ONE in England was giving him a chance in hell - I'd dare say I'd pull you up on this altogether and say NO ONE in America truly beleived Patterson would win - in America at the time there was that false milk N honeyed congregation mentality and Patterson was seen as the good little christian white hat guy whereas Liston was viewed as really REALLY bad news - no one wanted Liston anywhere near the title - thats the difference with England and America I guess - as I say everyone who I have spoken to who was around during that period ie my dad, my uncle, my grandad, 3 or 4 of my friends parents, endless old guys down the pub all said exactly the same thing to me - that no one at time thought the fight would go more than one or two rounds at most.

Point 3 - I have reports of those Langford wins stating that Langford's eye's were pretty well swollen shut in both those fights he won by KO - and people always claim well Wills was very green at that stage - which is hogwash - he was good enough himself at the time to also already hold a win over Langford and to be mixing on a level with Joe Jeanette, Jeff Clark, Kid Cotton etc and regularly beating the likes of Langford, McVey, John Lester Johsons, Bill Tates etc etc he was not a green fighter at all by my calculations - but he did fall victim to those KO's when mixing it with the cream in the most testing period of his career at least - again the impression strikes me that if he was susceptible like that during his best years - to an shopworn (even accepting that Sam was something of a phenon) who was a good deal more physically handicapped than a Dempsey would have been then something tells me that a not-quite-as-sprightly-as-he-had-been-then Wills would be in alot of bother against any Dempsey pre-Firpo anyway - especially coupled with the fact that Wills didn't exactly look great against say Firpo who Dempsey absolutely anihilated.

To finish I really don't think I'm selling Wills short - I'm just saying it as I see it - under the circumstances one can only go largely on impressions gleened from his record, how often the guy was knocked down say, and buy who, and in what manner, and how agressively he was viewed, and how powerful and comparison's where both fought common opponents etc - Wills was a stnd up boxer type - very stand up straight which would leave him susceptible - he had (certainly in the Uzcudun fight) zero punch resistance - he generally blast people out and wasn't generally an agressive type of fighter - pretty unspectacular - a bit pedestrian is the impression I get and an unreliable fighter - got schooled by Sharkey too at a not too dissimilar age and circumstances to those under which Dempsey did pull out a win against Sharkey - I could go on but am only taking an impression - there are no amazing blast out wins on his records - no terrifying power, no incredible speed of hand or foot, there are no records for which he is renowned, he wasn't renowned for a superlative chin- actually he was renowned for very little other than being the man blackballed (excuse the pun) by Dempsey - no redeeming features - basically famous off the back of something which never happened (and which if it had've happened would likely have left his legacy somewhat blown away to little more than another Dempsey KO victim)

Here's a report from the Wills-Firpo match - doesn't make for inspiring reading I'm afraid

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Old 02-07-2011, 09:01 PM   #48
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Default Re: Dempsey kos Wills in 2 rounds 1924

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
Thanks B. I feel like i am talking in a void,stating my case. What I post on
ESB, trying to make my case, falls on deaf ears. Maybe, i should just fold my cards,and avoid tilting at windmills. Just watch the paint dry on my walls
and enjoy the fighters I have seen and read about,all my life in silence.
Let Dempsey's heirs defend his legacy from some of today's closed, and biased minds today. Damn frustrating for me...I am not versed in political correctness. cheers b...

BB you are just more qualified than most posters on here. You have seen or rubbed elbows with the old-timers and have spoken to many through-out the ages...most of these guys look at black and white film and don't believe the world had color back then...pay them no mind but keep trying to educate, a lot of people will open there eyes to your humble but educated opinion.
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Old 02-07-2011, 09:08 PM   #49
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Default Re: Dempsey kos Wills in 2 rounds 1924

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Originally Posted by RockysSplitNose View Post
Point 1 - I didn't say either of you directly insulted the other (althought I would suspect like me Burt probably finds your whole viewpoint on this a little insulting to the memory of a truly great fighter) I simply said he doesn't what I'd call respect your views because he spending so much very very frustrated sounding reponse time in tearing your opinions to shreds - so, with respect you are the one who is mistaken

Point 2 - PLenty of people in America may have been picking (or rather wanting) Floyd to somehow win - NO ONE in England was giving him a chance in hell - I'd dare say I'd pull you up on this altogether and say NO ONE in America truly beleived Patterson would win - in America at the time there was that false milk N honeyed congregation mentality and Patterson was seen as the good little christian white hat guy whereas Liston was viewed as really REALLY bad news - no one wanted Liston anywhere near the title - thats the difference with England and America I guess - as I say everyone who I have spoken to who was around during that period ie my dad, my uncle, my grandad, 3 or 4 of my friends parents, endless old guys down the pub all said exactly the same thing to me - that no one at time thought the fight would go more than one or two rounds at most.

Point 3 - I have reports of those Langford wins stating that Langford's eye's were pretty well swollen shut in both those fights he won by KO - and people always claim well Wills was very green at that stage - which is hogwash - he was good enough himself at the time to also already hold a win over Langford and to be mixing on a level with Joe Jeanette, Jeff Clark, Kid Cotton etc and regularly beating the likes of Langford, McVey, John Lester Johsons, Bill Tates etc etc he was not a green fighter at all by my calculations - but he did fall victim to those KO's when mixing it with the cream in the most testing period of his career at least - again the impression strikes me that if he was susceptible like that during his best years - to an shopworn (even accepting that Sam was something of a phenon) who was a good deal more physically handicapped than a Dempsey would have been then something tells me that a not-quite-as-sprightly-as-he-had-been-then Wills would be in alot of bother against any Dempsey pre-Firpo anyway - especially coupled with the fact that Wills didn't exactly look great against say Firpo who Dempsey absolutely anihilated.

To finish I really don't think I'm selling Wills short - I'm just saying it as I see it - under the circumstances one can only go largely on impressions gleened from his record, how often the guy was knocked down say, and buy who, and in what manner, and how agressively he was viewed, and how powerful and comparison's where both fought common opponents etc - Wills was a stnd up boxer type - very stand up straight which would leave him susceptible - he had (certainly in the Uzcudun fight) zero punch resistance - he generally blast people out and wasn't generally an agressive type of fighter - pretty unspectacular - a bit pedestrian is the impression I get and an unreliable fighter - got schooled by Sharkey too at a not too dissimilar age and circumstances to those under which Dempsey did pull out a win against Sharkey - I could go on but am only taking an impression - there are no amazing blast out wins on his records - no terrifying power, no incredible speed of hand or foot, there are no records for which he is renowned, he wasn't renowned for a superlative chin- actually he was renowned for very little other than being the man blackballed (excuse the pun) by Dempsey - no redeeming features - basically famous off the back of something which never happened (and which if it had've happened would likely have left his legacy somewhat blown away to little more than another Dempsey KO victim)

Here's a report from the Wills-Firpo match - doesn't make for inspiring reading I'm afraid

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Thanks for the read...interesting...sounds like a boring hug-fest...looks like it would have been a good win for Dempsey had they fought...perhaps an ugly battle
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Old 02-07-2011, 11:51 PM   #50
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Default Re: Dempsey kos Wills in 2 rounds 1924

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Originally Posted by Bummy Davis View Post
BB you are just more qualified than most posters on here. You have seen or rubbed elbows with the old-timers and have spoken to many through-out the ages...most of these guys look at black and white film and don't believe the world had color back then...pay them no mind but keep trying to educate, a lot of people will open there eyes to your humble but educated opinion.
bummy, I appreciate your comment. Everyone has a right to their opinions
on the merits of each fighters abilities, but not to distort the past and besmirch a fighter like Jack Dempsey as a racist and a coward, for the sake of political correctness...Jack Dempsey, whatever faults he had [he was not an ogre, just human], employed several non white sparring partners,such as Bill Tate,George Godfrey, Chief Turner during his championship reign.Would a hater of black fighters,as some have implied,have them in his camp, eat with them,spar with them etc,spend numerous card games with them if he was a
bigot ? Nay, I say. Besides Jack Dempsey had some Indian blood in his veins.
Some poster said that Dempsey held the title for 7-8 years and never fought a
viable black challenger,aside from Harry Wills,though they DID sign for a bout. Dempsey was active after winning the title THREE years ,from 1920, to 1923,when he flattened the Wild Bull of the Pampas Firpo, in two rounds
with two blurring punches,that the camera can hardly capture. In comparison
and to illustrate the temendous punching power of Dempsey in his LAST prime bout, Joe Louis hit the lumbering Abe Simon in 1941, with every punbch in the book before Abe Simon was stopped in the THIRTEENTH
ROUND.Such was the power of that prime Manassa Mauler.
Yes, he did stop fighting from 1923 to 1926, and started to enjoy the fruits of
his labor since fighting when he was a hobo in the Western bars ,for some grub to eat .No welfare checks those hard days. What thinking poster today can blame him ? I, can't. So Dempsey was as champion was only active from
1920-1923, in which time he kod Willard[1919],than kod billy miske,Bill Brennan,Georges Carpentier, Luis Angel Firpo,and comfortably decisioned
the great defensive fighter tommy Gibbons in 15 rounds, under the hot
Shelby sun...So Dempsey fought 5 of the top viable challengers in three years
before the allure of hollywood became too great to resist. By the time of his last fight, flattening the crude,but dangerous Firpo, he was regarded as a "man-Killer ",and virtually unbeatable. But three years without a fight, took it's toll on Tiger Jack, and at the age of 31-32, without a warm up fight,
without Jack Kearns, and most of all mourning his brother Bernie, who
commited suicide, leaving a family. These events, and age and ring rust took it's toll on Dempsey, and a razor prime Tunney did the rest.
So B, Dempsey never hooked up with Harry Wills,though they did sign for a bout,that was cancelled,through NO FAULT of Dempsey or Wills. He employed
black sparring partners, he helped his old black opponent John Lester Johnson,before Johnson's death when Johnson was ailing in a nursing home.
Tex Rickard and the powers that be,were fearful to match a black fighter in
those days,to a White fighter,when just a decade before the Johnson-Jeffries
bout in Reno caused terrible race riots,and loss of life. Picture ESB, if Rickard did match Dempsey and Wills,and race riots did en sue, Rickard would be
accused of causing riots and possible death's for enriching himself, while
knowing how risky it was at the time...Dempsey,cannot be blamed for
unfair but real conditions of that time. No Sir...
Finally ,My favorite Heavyweight of my life Joe Louis, aside from John Henry Lewis, who Louis kod in 1 round for a payday in 1939,[I lived next door to a trainer of JH Lewis], Never gave a shot to such dangerous black punchers as
Lee Q Murray, Lem Franklin, Harry Bobo, Curtis Sheppard, Turkey Thompson
etc, who were a helluva lot better than the bums of the month inferior
fighters as harry Thomas, Johnny Paycheck, Jack Roper, Al McCoy,who woulkd have loved a payday fight with the Brown Bomber. They truly deserved a shot at that title. It was KNOWN in boxing circles,those days of
dangerous punchers of the black heavyweights of that time. Not until 1947,did Louis give a title shot to Jersey Joe Walcott, Louis's first black contender since JH Lewis in 1939..
So in conclusion, Dempsey has been under the gun of boxing's revisionists
today,unfairly,whilst a Joe Louis's brain trust,who never gave a shot for a title bout to any worthy black fighters of Louis's long reign,escapes scrutiny
entirely. This is why I feel so strongly to defend a truly great and THRILLING
fighter, [no rope-a-dope folks],who gave all he had as a fighter, and died a
true gentleman. Cheers B.
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:00 AM   #51
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Default Re: Dempsey kos Wills in 2 rounds 1924

if you are talking about manbearpig i wouldnt worry too much about him...I have yet to have heard him make a meaningful contribution. Actually Pachilles while a similar douche sometimes actually makes a constructive comment....nothing like that from manbearpig.
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Old 02-08-2011, 12:36 AM   #52
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Default Re: Dempsey kos Wills in 2 rounds 1924

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Jack Dempsey insists his proposed fight with Harry Wills goes ahead despite the disaproval of his manager and the white establishment ,they meet in 1924 ,and Jack has a surprisingly easy night s work koing the Brown Panther in 2 rounds,83 years later where does Dempsey stand among the Heavyweight Champs ,? does he crack your top 5?
He's already in my top five. Dempsey is absurdly underrated today. When people who actually saw him fight were still around, he was always right up there, even higher than, Joe Louis.

Had he fought Wills, perhaps more people would actually give him the ATG placement he deserves. And for what it's worth, I do think Dempsey would have beaten Wills, and pretty decisively too.
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Old 02-08-2011, 02:09 AM   #53
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Default Re: Dempsey kos Wills in 2 rounds 1924

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He's already in my top five. Dempsey is absurdly underrated today. When people who actually saw him fight were still around, he was always right up there, even higher than, Joe Louis.

Had he fought Wills, perhaps more people would actually give him the ATG placement he deserves. And for what it's worth, I do think Dempsey would have beaten Wills, and pretty decisively too.
stylistically wills seems taylor made for dempsey in my mind.....
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Old 02-08-2011, 02:13 AM   #54
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Default Re: Dempsey kos Wills in 2 rounds 1924

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBOUmkoI44w[/ame]

of course this is very post prime wills..still i just dont think he would have had the right style to beat dempsey
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Old 02-08-2011, 02:45 AM   #55
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**** off Johnstown you paedo looking spunkrag
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Old 02-08-2011, 03:26 AM   #56
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Default Re: Dempsey kos Wills in 2 rounds 1924

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**** off Johnstown you paedo looking spunkrag
seriously why do you come into classics..you seem to have no knowledge of any historic boxers...and you never add anything to any threads...
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Old 02-08-2011, 07:11 AM   #57
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**** off spastic. I schooled you on Ali when you first reared your horribly disfigured head on classic.
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Old 02-09-2011, 09:58 AM   #58
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Default Re: Dempsey kos Wills in 2 rounds 1924

Quote:
Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
bummy, I appreciate your comment. Everyone has a right to their opinions
on the merits of each fighters abilities, but not to distort the past and besmirch a fighter like Jack Dempsey as a racist and a coward, for the sake of political correctness...Jack Dempsey, whatever faults he had [he was not an ogre, just human], employed several non white sparring partners,such as Bill Tate,George Godfrey, Chief Turner during his championship reign.Would a hater of black fighters,as some have implied,have them in his camp, eat with them,spar with them etc,spend numerous card games with them if he was a
bigot ? Nay, I say. Besides Jack Dempsey had some Indian blood in his veins.
Some poster said that Dempsey held the title for 7-8 years and never fought a
viable black challenger,aside from Harry Wills,though they DID sign for a bout. Dempsey was active after winning the title THREE years ,from 1920, to 1923,when he flattened the Wild Bull of the Pampas Firpo, in two rounds
with two blurring punches,that the camera can hardly capture. In comparison
and to illustrate the temendous punching power of Dempsey in his LAST prime bout, Joe Louis hit the lumbering Abe Simon in 1941, with every punbch in the book before Abe Simon was stopped in the THIRTEENTH
ROUND.Such was the power of that prime Manassa Mauler.
Yes, he did stop fighting from 1923 to 1926, and started to enjoy the fruits of
his labor since fighting when he was a hobo in the Western bars ,for some grub to eat .No welfare checks those hard days. What thinking poster today can blame him ? I, can't. So Dempsey was as champion was only active from
1920-1923, in which time he kod Willard[1919],than kod billy miske,Bill Brennan,Georges Carpentier, Luis Angel Firpo,and comfortably decisioned
the great defensive fighter tommy Gibbons in 15 rounds, under the hot
Shelby sun...So Dempsey fought 5 of the top viable challengers in three years
before the allure of hollywood became too great to resist. By the time of his last fight, flattening the crude,but dangerous Firpo, he was regarded as a "man-Killer ",and virtually unbeatable. But three years without a fight, took it's toll on Tiger Jack, and at the age of 31-32, without a warm up fight,
without Jack Kearns, and most of all mourning his brother Bernie, who
commited suicide, leaving a family. These events, and age and ring rust took it's toll on Dempsey, and a razor prime Tunney did the rest.
So B, Dempsey never hooked up with Harry Wills,though they did sign for a bout,that was cancelled,through NO FAULT of Dempsey or Wills. He employed
black sparring partners, he helped his old black opponent John Lester Johnson,before Johnson's death when Johnson was ailing in a nursing home.
Tex Rickard and the powers that be,were fearful to match a black fighter in
those days,to a White fighter,when just a decade before the Johnson-Jeffries
bout in Reno caused terrible race riots,and loss of life. Picture ESB, if Rickard did match Dempsey and Wills,and race riots did en sue, Rickard would be
accused of causing riots and possible death's for enriching himself, while
knowing how risky it was at the time...Dempsey,cannot be blamed for
unfair but real conditions of that time. No Sir...
Finally ,My favorite Heavyweight of my life Joe Louis, aside from John Henry Lewis, who Louis kod in 1 round for a payday in 1939,[I lived next door to a trainer of JH Lewis], Never gave a shot to such dangerous black punchers as
Lee Q Murray, Lem Franklin, Harry Bobo, Curtis Sheppard, Turkey Thompson
etc, who were a helluva lot better than the bums of the month inferior
fighters as harry Thomas, Johnny Paycheck, Jack Roper, Al McCoy,who woulkd have loved a payday fight with the Brown Bomber. They truly deserved a shot at that title. It was KNOWN in boxing circles,those days of
dangerous punchers of the black heavyweights of that time. Not until 1947,did Louis give a title shot to Jersey Joe Walcott, Louis's first black contender since JH Lewis in 1939..
So in conclusion, Dempsey has been under the gun of boxing's revisionists
today,unfairly,whilst a Joe Louis's brain trust,who never gave a shot for a title bout to any worthy black fighters of Louis's long reign,escapes scrutiny
entirely. This is why I feel so strongly to defend a truly great and THRILLING
fighter, [no rope-a-dope folks],who gave all he had as a fighter, and died a
true gentleman. Cheers B.
all true....I spoke to a few people who knew Jack through out the years and met Jack at his restaurant and a few events. Jack was a hard core tough guy in the ring but was no racist, he came up poor and hard but was one to always help the underdog....He had no fear of any fighter of any color and fought some tough guys...to blame the Wills non fight on Dempsey is a weak hair picking revisionist ploy.
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:06 AM   #59
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Default Re: Dempsey kos Wills in 2 rounds 1924

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of course this is very post prime wills..still i just dont think he would have had the right style to beat dempsey

I always felt that way but I guess this video is Wills past his best, still style wise he seemed pretty open to being hit and not a fast man, Wills was no Gene Tunney as far as movement or speed. Still it would have been an interesting match because Wills had experience but I don't think he could beat Dempsey who was a force to be reckoned with but you can never tell
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Old 02-09-2011, 02:36 PM   #60
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Default Re: Dempsey kos Wills in 2 rounds 1924

I believe there's film of Harry Wills v Bartley Madden from 1924 kicking around. Apparently he looks a bit better in that one, but is probably still some way past his prime.
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