Weight Training - is there any point?

[viru§™]

Originally Posted by MrSmall

too many people think smaller and weaker and "staying at a weight class" through starving themselves and running themselves (literally) into the ground is somehow better than filling out a little and being a stronger, better athlete.

I thought I was the only one that disagreed with this idea

[Sam Spade]

Gaining lean body mass is a lot harder than most people who haven't lifted think. You can gain a couple of quick pounds, then anything else is a struggle. Unless youre eating thousands of excess calories, 200g> protein and 'supplementing', youre not gaining much mass, dont worry about it. You can still make some decent strength gains though.

[Sam Spade]

Originally Posted by viru§™

I thought I was the only one that disagreed with this idea

Roach has said a few times he likes his fighters to fight at a more natural weight (and not drain). Its just overcoming the height/reach thing is so hard unless youre Pac-fast.

[aramini]

I have to be honest with you too, I've noticed that (especially in the light heavy to heavyweight division) guys are actually quite a bit slower than they used to be and gas quicker, with all these supposedly superior modern training techniques and supplements. I do think your average heavy throws fewer punches than a 1940s heavy, gets tired quicker, and is both fatter and maybe more muscular. Billy Conn had the activity level and speed of a middleweight nowadays. Of course there are fast fighters like Roy, but he wasn't really very busy at light heavy, either.

I don't think weights are absolutely necessary to be functionally strong over long periods of time in this particular sport, though I do love my weight training.

[MrSmall]

Originally Posted by Sam Spade

Gaining lean body mass is a lot harder than most people who haven't lifted think. You can gain a couple of quick pounds, then anything else is a struggle. Unless youre eating thousands of excess calories, 200g> protein and 'supplementing', youre not gaining much mass, dont worry about it. You can still make some decent strength gains though.

If you have a fast metabolism (read: most boxers!) then yes you need a lot of extra calories to convince your body to put any weight on, and if activity levels are high it will be good mass. It takes a long time to add lean mass BUT if he is new to lifting weights, he will have a lot of newbie gains.

Originally Posted by aramini

Well, the thing is, punch resistance. If you are not weight drained, a muscular chest and arms is not going to help when a 175 lb guy lands an overhand right with leverage on your chin as opposed to a possibly shorter 147 lb guy without as much weight behind his punch. obviously being weight drained weakens you (I took punches better at 125 than I did at 118 )but look at Hearn's fights at Cruiserweight: just about every person he fought wobbled him before he got them out of there. At welter, only the very very very best puncher could dent him after 14 rounds of punishment. He probably hit harder at Cruiser, but his chin wasn't strong even with all that extra muscle and weight.

the key is finding your best competitive weight, where you can say, I am stronger than most at this weight, I feel energetic. But if you are too heavy for your frame you run the risk of getting hurt when you fight competitively, since those guys all for the most part cut and know how to rehydrate somewhat effectively.

Who said anything about arms and chest giving you a better chin? If you have a STRONGER BODY, your punch resistance MAY improve, although this would be somewhat irrelevant to boxing as the whole point is to not get hit clean and if the other guy is any good you are most likely out of there, but if you are a strong guy then maybe you have that ace up your sleeve, no promises there though people! But the flipside is that "knockout" power increases exponentially as the weight classes go up. How many knockouts are there at higher weight classes? How many little guys can batter each other all night? Its a different argument, and I didn't suggest he should gain 30lbs. If however he gains a bit of muscle weight, he feels better and PERFORMS better, whats the problem with that? If nothing else he will feel more confident judging by his post asking about how to do it, and how much does confidence in your ability count for in boxing?

too many guys go WAY Ahead of themselves, say they want to get bigger, stronger etc but not TOO much bigger, don't want to do STRENGTH training because they will become 300lb powerlifters, they don't want to eat TOO much because they heard the muscles will turn into fat. Only want to gain 10lbs of lean muscle and so carry on eating like birds. it takes YEARS for most non-novices to gain any significant musculature. if your body is that desperate to put on some weight and get stronger that you make fast and good gains (ie you don't just gain a spare tyre around your middle), then what's the issue? not everyone will perform their best or ever reach their potential competitive ability by trying to keep their weight down all their life and not touching anything that MIGHT get them stronger or more powerful or faster INCASE they turn into Ronnie Coleman overnight.

[Sam Spade]

Originally Posted by aramini

I have to be honest with you too, I've noticed that (especially in the light heavy to heavyweight division) guys are actually quite a bit slower than they used to be and gas quicker, with all these supposedly superior modern training techniques and supplements. I do think your average heavy throws fewer punches than a 1940s heavy, gets tired quicker, and is both fatter and maybe more muscular. Billy Conn had the activity level and speed of a middleweight nowadays. Of course there are fast fighters like Roy, but he wasn't really very busy at light heavy, either.

I don't think weights are absolutely necessary to be functionally strong over long periods of time in this particular sport, though I do love my weight training.

Good post. I'd add that it does vary a bit from person to person. Some fighters can really benefit from lifting; Holyfield built his heavyweight career in the weight room, and he was doing a basic bodybuilding routine as well. Other guys clearly lose stamina...even Evander himself probably did. Most things are give and take...

[furor celtica]

what's HIGH IMPACT interval sprints?

[MrSmall]

Originally Posted by aramini

I have to be honest with you too, I've noticed that (especially in the light heavy to heavyweight division) guys are actually quite a bit slower than they used to be and gas quicker, with all these supposedly superior modern training techniques and supplements. I do think your average heavy throws fewer punches than a 1940s heavy, gets tired quicker, and is both fatter and maybe more muscular. Billy Conn had the activity level and speed of a middleweight nowadays. Of course there are fast fighters like Roy, but he wasn't really very busy at light heavy, either.

I don't think weights are absolutely necessary to be functionally strong over long periods of time in this particular sport, though I do love my weight training.

Modern heavier fighters are lazier fighters then, that isn't because they are stronger people. Activity levels are not related to strength levels if endurance training is the same.

They are in no way necessary to build some strength, but they are an efficient and usually accessible way for people to reach that goal.

[MrSmall]

Originally Posted by furor celtica

what's HIGH IMPACT interval sprints?

Punch yourself in the face, HARD, and say "RAKIM RAKIM RAKIM" as you are running along backwards.

[furor celtica]

Originally Posted by MrSmall

Punch yourself in the face, HARD, and say "RAKIM RAKIM RAKIM" as you are running along backwards.

wtf dude

[KillSomething]

Originally Posted by MrSmall

But the flipside is that "knockout" power increases exponentially as the weight classes go up. How many knockouts are there at higher weight classes? How many little guys can batter each other all night?

Off topic, but do you think it's more to do with less power at lower weights, or poorer punch resistance at higher weights?

Even if I worked my neck and bulked up, I have a hard time thinking I'd be able to take a heavyweight shot. I can handle a middleweight's punches fine though.

My thinking was always that heavyweights are more or less the same in punch resistance as smaller guys their own height. The reason more KO's occur is because they're getting hit WAY HARDER by big, strong dudes. Big strong dudes that go to sleep easy if they get hit by other big strong dudes. Or even slightly smaller strong dudes.

I'm 6'0, I've been 140-190. I've seriously rocked and hurt guys who are 220-240 and my own height. If I'm at 170 (optimal for me), I can take shots from most guys at that weight. But I have the frame to go up over 200 if I weight train and eat a lot. I think if I did that my relative punch resistance would go way down, because I'd be taking bigger shots without really doing anything to compensate for it. Chin is one of those things that can be worked on, but you've really either got it or not.

Guess what I'm saying is that the person's bone structure stays the same regardless of how much weight they gain, and since chin isn't really a function of muscle, you're essentially giving yourself a glass jaw by putting yourself against guys who can hit really hard.

Guys at lower weights bash each other up because they're evenly matched. They can take each other's shots. Guys at heavyweight aren't generally tall enough to be taking bombs off 250lb monsters. A heavyweight who's 6'3 could be a light heavyweight without the added muscle. And we know our biceps and pecs don't contribute to punch resistance.

[MrSmall]

Originally Posted by KillSomething

Off topic, but do you think it's more to do with less power at lower weights, or poorer punch resistance at higher weights?

Even if I worked my neck and bulked up, I have a hard time thinking I'd be able to take a heavyweight shot. I can handle a middleweight's punches fine though.

My thinking was always that heavyweights are more or less the same in punch resistance as smaller guys their own height. The reason more KO's occur is because they're getting hit WAY HARDER by big, strong dudes. Big strong dudes that go to sleep easy if they get hit by other big strong dudes. Or even slightly smaller strong dudes.

I'm 6'0, I've been 140-190. I've seriously rocked and hurt guys who are 220-240 and my own height. If I'm at 170 (optimal for me), I can take shots from most guys at that weight. But I have the frame to go up over 200 if I weight train and eat a lot. I think if I did that my relative punch resistance would go way down, because I'd be taking bigger shots without really doing anything to compensate for it. Chin is one of those things that can be worked on, but you've really either got it or not.

Guess what I'm saying is that the person's bone structure stays the same regardless of how much weight they gain, and since chin isn't really a function of muscle, you're essentially giving yourself a glass jaw by putting yourself against guys who can hit really hard.

Guys at lower weights bash each other up because they're evenly matched. They can take each other's shots. Guys at heavyweight aren't generally tall enough to be taking bombs off 250lb monsters. A heavyweight who's 6'3 could be a light heavyweight without the added muscle. And we know our biceps and pecs don't contribute to punch resistance.

Not sure why pecs and biceps being bigger helping with punch resistance is even being brought up? Who said anything about those muscles?

I think, with the heavyweights hitting harder thing, is that the human body, in its average capacity can do certain things and endure certain levels of fatigue, or pressure, or pain, or shock etc. Like, most people will at some point fairly quickly bench press 100kg, this is achievable by a larger percentage than people who will bench press 140kg. The people who can build up to running a 13 second 100m sprint, are in the majority, espeically compared to the 11 second sprint percentage. What I'm trying to say is, in my view punch resistance comes from who knows what, but if you are taking an average, if well trained, punch from an average size man then you will probably be more prone to be able to handle that punch rather than from a heavyweight, unless you are particularly ill prepared or weak chinned or the person hitting you is a particularly powerful hitter. The average man is not a 220-240lb man trained SPECIFICALLY to throw hard punches. And so, the average man is not trained SPECIFICALLY to WITHSTAND hard punches from a 220-240lb trained pugilist.
To summarise I think the average person has an average punch resistance (after some training and no sucker punches etc) that will accommodate some average (read: lower) weight class hitters, but I don't think this resistance accommodates heavier (read: rarer) punches or punchers.

And with regards to getting bigger giving yourself a glass jaw, you are also up against a glass jawed opponent then. And whatever happened to hit but don't get hit? And why would you put on 20-30-40lbs to go UP in classes? Natural heavyweights and light heavies (by this I mean guys in the early to mid teens being that build, that size, with no training) WILL be hitting harder and WILL be better prepared to compete at a certain heavy weight than someone who was a skinny weakling who bulks up a LOT to get to there. But, if you bulk up 10-15 even 20lbs, fill out, don't get blown over by a strong breeze, then that won't necessarily mean you are a knockout waiting to happen just like that.

[KillSomething]

Originally Posted by MrSmall

Not sure why pecs and biceps being bigger helping with punch resistance is even being brought up? Who said anything about those muscles?

No one, that was just me. I was saying that a 6'3 heavyweight is going to have bigger pecs and arms (and other muscles) than a 6'3 light heavyweight. Those muscles have weight, and they don't help you take a shot. So in a relative sense, the bigger guy can't take a shot as well (assuming the two guys are the same person. Am I making sense or do I need a drink?).

Originally Posted by MrSmall

To summarise I think the average person has an average punch resistance that will accommodate some average (read: lower) weight class hitters, but I don't think this resistance accommodates heavier (read: rarer) punches or punchers.....

And with regards to getting bigger giving yourself a glass jaw, you are also up against a glass jawed opponent then.

Right, this was sort of my point. Now if that average person gets to be the same size as the guys hitting him...he's still liable to get hurt. He'll have more power, so he's more likely to hurt his opponent, but there's still that element that isn't there at lower classes: If this guy catches me even a little, it could be goodnight. Same goes for me, but I don't like to play those games. Anyone can get caught. I prefer to stay conscious when it happens .

Originally Posted by MrSmall

Natural heavyweights and light heavies (by this I mean guys in the early to mid teens being that build, that size, with no training) WILL be hitting harder and WILL be better prepared to compete at a certain heavy weight than someone who was a skinny weakling who bulks up a LOT to get to there.

Right. And natural lightweights aren't going to be as good if they bulk to middleweight...even though they'll look bigger, hit harder, etc. They're getting hit by guys who are probably more meant for that weight class than they are.

As a grown man, if you consciously try to get bigger, you're probably stepping out of your natural weight class. That may or may not be a fair tradeoff. I'm almost always against significant weight gain for folks who don't really know how well they're suited to their own class yet. You're taking everyone's shots and wrecking dudes with your power? Then sure, go on up a class and see how you do. But if you're new to the sport, you could be setting yourself up for failure. I believe in strength training to improve power and speed, but I've never seen anyone turn themselves into a puncher by bulking up OR strength training. You might be best off staying small and hitting like a girl. Just hit like a girl a lot and stay out of the way, and you win.

Originally Posted by MrSmall

But, if you bulk up 10-15 even 20lbs, fill out, don't get blown over by a strong breeze, then that won't necessarily mean you are a knockout waiting to happen just like that.

True. But I doubt a 140lb guy at 5'8 is THAT scrawny and weak. I mean, aramini is that size and isn't even 140. 5'8 is SHORT for anything above 152. Hell, the national champ at 165 (and PA champ) is 6'3. 165 has tons of guys who are 6'0-6'4. And they can punch. I'm 6'0 and could probably do 152.

Short guys that succeed at these weights are generally TREMENDOUS punchers. So if you're weak at 140, weight gain is likely not the answer. Serious strength training is. Turn yourself into a wiry puncher and victimise guys who are even smaller than you

I just hate to see a boxer hit the weights for the sake of looks.

[MrSmall]

Oh no, no athlete should hit the weights for the sake of looks, unless looks are his main priority, and doesn't mind if it affects him in other sports. Then again you won't magically become glass jawed if you get bigger guns. Its only if its part of an OVERALL bodybuilding process over a long time and a focus away from boxing and large weight gain and training in methods detrimental to force development that would cause any real issue.

I'm not a fan of "natural weight class" much, UNLESS its heavier.
If a guy is undernourished, has an awful diet growing up, and/or ends up a skinny weakling at 18, is that his "natural weight" because he hasn't trained with weights? If he runs himself into the ground, 5-10k every day because he read somewhere that's what the champs do/did, ate poorly, and again is a rake, is that his natural weight class because he hasn't tried to bulk up?

And going from light heavy to heavy is what, 25lbs? You don't have to get much bigger pecs or arms from that, you could mainly get a bigger back, bigger legs, bigger glutes, core, shoulders, neck, traps.. Would they now help you build a stronger base to take a punch? Who would base their whole program around getting bigger pecs or arms if they are of the athletic inclination unless they are arm wrestlers?

[MrSmall]

and if you are gaining 25lbs and you are not training your ASS off and taking your time, and/or anabolics, then you will be getting a bit fatter.
I don't know anyone who has gained 25lbs, lean, while training hard, without drugs, over a relatively short period (say 2 years)