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Old 12-04-2007, 10:06 AM   #16
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

I believe Bob Fitzsimmons was a monstrous puincher, a freak for his size.
And he was legendary tough too.

But I find it hard to rank him and others from his era without comparable footage to the later fighters.

Just because some old-timers in 1930 reckoned Fitz woulda "moidered" the likes of Baer, Sharkey and Schmeling doesn't count for much.
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Old 12-04-2007, 11:40 AM   #17
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Just because some old-timers in 1930 reckoned Fitz woulda "moidered" the likes of Baer, Sharkey and Schmeling doesn't count for much.
I tend to agree. Don King will never allow them to fight him in any event.

I think his acomplishments in the heavyweight division are suficient to justify a top 20 ranking on resume.

Last edited by janitor; 12-04-2007 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 12-04-2007, 11:52 AM   #18
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Janitor, since you make the claim, could you summarize (as lengthy as you wish) Fitzsimmons resume at heavyweight? The wins and losses, the good and the bad, the circumstances, etc.
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Old 12-04-2007, 12:02 PM   #19
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Janitor, since you make the claim, could you summarize (as lengthy as you wish) Fitzsimmons resume at heavyweight? The wins and losses, the good and the bad, the circumstances, etc.
Much of it is missing due to the shabby records of the period but the following points stand out-

Of the elite heavyweights of the period he fought Peter Maher 2X, Tom Sharkey 2X Jim Corbett, Gus Ruhlin and Jim Jeffries 2X. Apart from the two Jeffries fights he won all these fights by knockout (should have won the first Sharkey fight by KO). Indeed verry suden carefully timed knockouuts as far as the newspapers suggest.

In adition to this he beat a lot of second teir heavyweights of the period such as Ed Dunkhorst verry convincingly.

It is also woorth comparing the way he beat certain fighters to the way other top heavyweights of the period beat them. What is obvious is that there was no better finisher at heavyweight in that era.
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Old 12-04-2007, 12:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

In the Ring With Bob Fitzsimmons goes over each exhibition and bout , describes the opponent's record and experience, and discusses the fight. You will more than find plenty there to make a strong argument on Fitz's behalf.
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Old 12-05-2007, 03:41 PM   #21
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

One of the Maher wins came by retirement not a KO. But I agree Fitz was a great great fighter.
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Old 12-05-2007, 03:49 PM   #22
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdonnellon
One of the Maher wins came by retirement not a KO. But I agree Fitz was a great great fighter.
I have that report. Maher was on the way out, and told Fitz he had enough in a clinch. Fitz let Maher finish the round, then Maher retired.

Last edited by Olander; 10-21-2006 at 10:52 PM.
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Old 12-05-2007, 03:57 PM   #23
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Spot on!
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:04 PM   #24
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I sincerely believe this to be the case. Based on his dominence vs the other top fighters of his era the case is strong.

The bigest objection to this claim is obviously his weight. He would have to be a genuine physical freak for this to be the case.

I think that the way he disposed of the top heavyweights of his day, generaly with a single punch or combination justifies including him among the top heavyweight finishers of all time.

I am in absolutely no doubt whatsoever that he is the best heavyweight finisher of the period between John L Sullivan and Jack Dempsey.

Today he is rotinely ranked beneath champions such as Max Schmeling, JKack Sharkey and Max Baer. Virtualy nobody would have considered these men to be in the same league as him while they were champion.

I submit that his record combined with the finishing prowes he displayed while disposing of his heavyweight oponents justify such a ranking.
You have film evidence of this ?

otherwise all you have are SUBJECTIVE eye wintess accounts.
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:05 PM   #25
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

I suppose for most of us the question(for a top 20 position) is if he could defeat Schmeling, Baer, Charles, Walcott, J.Sharkey, Young, Norton, Patterson, langford, Jeanette, McVey, Wills etc?
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:27 PM   #26
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

2 Points

1. Is his resume truly better than many brief champions? Such as Douglas/Rahman/McCall???? I say no its not.
2. The Pre-1900s fighters were smaller, with lesser skills, with a smaller pool of fighters. It took a less to be successful back then. Thats why you had novices fighting for the world title.
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:41 PM   #27
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

[quote=PowerPuncher]2 Points

Quote:
1. Is his resume truly better than many brief champions? Such as Douglas/Rahman/McCall????
Absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt.

These are men with one good win who were otherwise B grade in their eras. Fitzsimmons basicaly cleaned house in his era apart from Jeffries.

Quote:
2. The Pre-1900s fighters were smaller, with lesser skills, with a smaller pool of fighters. It took a less to be successful back then. Thats why you had novices fighting for the world title.
Huh?

There were a lot of smaller heavyweights but there were pleanty of big heavyweights around as well. The heavyweight division was esentialy anything from 160 lbs up.

The talent pool was far larger than at any point in the postwar era and the best fighters were every bit as skilled as the best today. Just skilled at fighting under a diferent rule set.

Novices fighting for the world title?

Dont know what you mean there.
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:45 PM   #28
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by godking
You have film evidence of this ?

otherwise all you have are SUBJECTIVE eye wintess accounts.
Evidence for what exactly?

I think that I am justified in saying that he was the best finisher of the heavyweight champions between John L Sullivan and Jack Dempsey. You would be verry hard put to argue otherwise.

I am also justified in saying that he was verry dominant against the best heavyweights of his day. That much is written in black and white.
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:47 PM   #29
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Novices like Rademacher or Leon Spinks? What makes you think the numbers are greater now? i dont know the figures-do you?
1900 fighters were not significantly smaller than any other decade (except 1910's) until at least the 70's. BTW was Ruiz not at least equivalent to Rachman, McColl etc so how do you square this with Jones and Toney?
On a different tack the lack of black fighters on Bob's record is interesting(Harris Martin and Starlight excepted) One would imagine Childs and Craig were obvious opponents and larer on Armstrong, Klondike, Griffin and Martin were top contenders. Not that you can say he avoided any of them but as he fought all the top white contenders-except McCoy- it is surprising. Is Pollock out there? Buy the book?!
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Old 12-05-2007, 05:19 PM   #30
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Quote:
PowerPuncher

1. Is his resume truly better than many brief champions? Such as Douglas/Rahman/McCall???? I say no its not.
I think it is. Those guys were best known for upset wins. Fitzsimmons has several wins over hall of fmae fighters. There's your difference.

Quote:
2. The Pre-1900s fighters were smaller, with lesser skills, with a smaller pool of fighters. It took a less to be successful back then. Thats why you had novices fighting for the world title.
Smaller? Yes. Less skills? Maybe. Novices fighting for titles? Not in Fitz case. Fitz claimed to have 300 fights, and likely had a least 50 before fighting Corbett for the title.
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