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Old 12-07-2007, 05:50 AM   #46
janitor
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
20 Heavyweights I'd Make Favourite Over Bob
Even if they could theoreticaly beat him their claim to be ranked over him is subjective if he has a better resume. Head to head is speculative but resume is fact.

Quote:
Jim Jeffries
Jack Johnson
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Sonny Liston
Lennox Lewis
Joe Frazier
Evander Hollyfield
Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson
Harry Wills
Sam Langford
Riddick Bowe
Jack Dempsey
George Foreman
Rocky Marciano
Sam McVey
Jersey Joe Walcott
Max Schmeling
Peter Jackson


Just a thought. And of course, Bob could beat some of them with that power. But I would make all of these guys favourite.
I would submit that Fitzsimmons would be a dangerous asignment for anybody whose chin was less than granite. Whatever else he was, he seems to be the kind of fighter you only needed to make one mistake against.
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Old 12-07-2007, 05:56 AM   #47
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by godking
Its based on eye witness accounts

I dont put much stock in eye witness account from a 100 + years ago
You are right to treat them with caution but you cannot dismiss them completely.

If ten diferent newspaper acounts say that Fitzsimmons feinted then ended a fight with a right to the body then a left to the temple then that is what happened.

Certain points can still be picked out such as the fact that Fitzsimmons finished most of his top oponents with a single punch or combination.

Quote:
eye witness accounts vary based on personal opinions and experiences what someone thinks is amazing 100 years ago it nothing special today.
What if the observer lived into the 70s and was still impresed by what he saw back then?

Quote:
evidence on film >>>>> 100 year old witness accounts.
TFilm can be just as unreliable as eyewitness acounts. Where both sources are available you should cross reference them. The acount will somtimes show you something in the film which was not imidiately obvious.
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:00 AM   #48
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
20 Heavyweights I'd Make Favourite Over Bob

Jim Jeffries
Jack Johnson
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Sonny Liston
Lennox Lewis
Joe Frazier
Evander Hollyfield
Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson
Harry Wills
Sam Langford
Riddick Bowe
Jack Dempsey
George Foreman
Rocky Marciano
Sam McVey
Jersey Joe Walcott
Max Schmeling
Peter Jackson


Just a thought. And of course, Bob could beat some of them with that power. But I would make all of these guys favourite.
You could easily name another 20 head to head. Rsume wise he stacks up better than H2H, that's for sure.
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:03 AM   #49
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Certain points can still be picked out such as the fact that Fitzsimmons finished most of his top oponents with a single punch or combination.
You might still want to see if there were some significant punches landed prior to final one, such as in Corbett fight, which might have weakened the later to be finished.
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:07 AM   #50
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
You could easily name another 20 head to head. Rsume wise he stacks up better than H2H, that's for sure.
To tell you the truth I really dont know how speckled Bob would fare against these 20 fighters head to head. I have a prety good idea of how Sam Langford or Jack Dempsey would fare against them but Fitzsimmons is shrouded in more fog.

All that I will comit myself to is that he would be dangerous to any who were not durable.

Lets ignore the head to head issue for a minute and ask whether Fitzsimmons acomplishements at heavyweight relative to his era were better than those of some of these names.

I say yes.
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:10 AM   #51
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
You might still want to see if there were some significant punches landed prior to final one, such as in Corbett fight, which might have weakened the later to be finished.
I think this is an entirley valid argument. I dont buy into the view that Fitz was getting leatered untill he landed that one solar plexus punch. I think he was setting Corbett up for a fall through the last couple of rounds.

Even so when the end came it was a swift execution.
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:14 AM   #52
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

What really sucks is we can't even see the final punch clearly. I tried rewatching it in slow-motion many times, but it stayz fuzzy to which point exactly the punch landed. Post-fight reports also differ somewhat about it.


The blow that did the business was a left-hander over the heart.
...
First he caught Corbett right over the heart and he staggered.


The blow that did the business was a left hand blow over the heart.
...
Fitz lands a terrible left hand jab on Corbett's stomach


With the full power of his wonderful driving muscles brought into play, the Australian fairly ripped the blow up the pit of Corbett's stomach at a point just under the heart.


Corbett: "I don't know how I happened to let him get in that heart blow."


Fitzsimmons shot his left glove on Corbett's body, just below the heart.
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:41 AM   #53
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
What really sucks is we can't even see the final punch clearly. I tried rewatching it in slow-motion many times, but it stayz fuzzy to which point exactly the punch landed. Post-fight reports also differ somewhat about it.


The blow that did the business was a left-hander over the heart.
...
First he caught Corbett right over the heart and he staggered.


The blow that did the business was a left hand blow over the heart.
...
Fitz lands a terrible left hand jab on Corbett's stomach


With the full power of his wonderful driving muscles brought into play, the Australian fairly ripped the blow up the pit of Corbett's stomach at a point just under the heart.


Corbett: "I don't know how I happened to let him get in that heart blow."


Fitzsimmons shot his left glove on Corbett's body, just below the heart.
Interestingly Fitz confided to Jeffries years later that it was not a solarplexus punch but a blow to the trailing rib at the point where it passes over the heart.

Jeffries himself used the same punch on Corbett with the same effect.
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:44 AM   #54
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

[quote=janitor]
Quote:
Even if they could theoreticaly beat him their claim to be ranked over him is subjective if he has a better resume. Head to head is speculative but resume is fact.
Of course. It's just the first thing I will think off when somebody makes a claim like this. Rightly or wrongly I'm primarily interested in who could beat who.



Quote:
I would submit that Fitzsimmons would be a dangerous asignment for anybody whose chin was less than granite. Whatever else he was, he seems to be the kind of fighter you only needed to make one mistake against.
I agree with this, with the proviso that a granite chin might not save you. He seems like the kind of fighter that could hurt a grizzly bear if it took him lightly. And not for one second do I suggest that Fitz would go 0-3 against all of these boys, just that if he was up against Sam McVey, i'd be laying on Sam.
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Old 12-07-2007, 09:21 AM   #55
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
just that if he was up against Sam McVey, i'd be laying on Sam.
Hmmmmmmm

An interesting one.

i think I might go with Fitz to win this. McVea seems to be the type of fighter stylisticaly who Fitz tended to take into deep water and drown.
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Old 12-07-2007, 09:31 AM   #56
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
You could easily name another 20 head to head. Rsume wise he stacks up better than H2H, that's for sure.

Really? I'm not so sure about that...I struggled to get 20 actually.
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Old 12-07-2007, 09:32 AM   #57
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
i think I might go with Fitz to win this. McVea seems to be the type of fighter stylisticaly who Fitz tended to take into deep water and drown.
That's not in the rules.

Sam is indeed the borderline case here. My pick though.
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Old 12-07-2007, 10:46 AM   #58
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

There is no doubt that old-time sportswriters such as Hype Igoe who saw Fitz rated him with Dempsey and Louis as a finisher. Some questioned Jeff's power, but I know of none who questioned Fitz's. He was clearly a magnificant fighter in his time and place.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:44 AM   #59
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
There is no doubt that old-time sportswriters such as Hype Igoe who saw Fitz rated him with Dempsey and Louis as a finisher. Some questioned Jeff's power, but I know of none who questioned Fitz's. He was clearly a magnificant fighter in his time and place.
Not only am I convinced that Fitzsimmons was the best finisher of his era but I will go further and say that Joe Choynski was second only to Fitzsimmons in this regard.
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:47 PM   #60
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons is to this day a top 20 all time heavyweight.

An interesting point about Bob Fitzsimmons, is that he was a blacksmith by trade. Some say that he developed a lot of strenght in his shoulders, which may have aided him in the ring.
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