Bouncing or no bouncing when it comes to footwork?

[rongee90]

Originally Posted by bballchump11

well Martinez fights with his hands down, somebody better tell him to bring them up right?

Yes and no...he's an exception to the rule. A combinations of natural talent, skill and ability along with repetitive drills has helped him become more of a elusive defensive fighter

[wayneflint]

This has all been disscussed before in much finer detail with some good very active coaches that are on these forums and many other good boxing forums around, seriously why doesnt anyone use the search function? what a waste of time it has been for some very good coaches to give their insight to just have the same question asked every week
, half of the answers you are getting is just the same stuff thats being said in good posts but regurgitated over and over by someone who uses the search functions but doesnt get the full picture, you will get much more info if you research it, this has been done to death and should be obvious to anyone with experience in competing, you can do what you like in there, just watch your not there to be exposed, bouncing around is a movement to be exposed when you come across a better fighter, if its habit by then, its a weakness, like ive said in many posts if somthing can be exposed your leaving it to chance weather or not your opponent will or has the skill to expose the weakness, thats not smart leaving it down to luck, of course unless you are a modern Ali like some on these forums, drop your hands, do the shuffle, switch hit and show boat to the crowds, we'll all see you in the olympics.

[wayneflint]

Originally Posted by BoxinScienceUSA

the theory is that anything in motion stays in motion so it may give you a quicker reaction time. problem is, it's a 50/50 gamble if you're going in the correct direction at the time you need to move.

all it is, is doing it properly and practice getting comfortable with it. good luck!

Thats right and is a good theory for many things, however when working/co-ordinating with a live opponent goes straight out the window, speed in reaction comes from the stance and the ability to drive in any direction, it comes from good economy and understanding of very complex bio-mechanics, using the best suited muscles, bones, little manouvers for the job at hand and situation, which means in one situation the quickest way to slip, isnt always the quickest way to slip in another situation, when you understand how the body truely works this will become clear.

what can mess you up is momentum, say youve miss read a movement and you initiate a direction, you got it wrong and need to back up or reverse the movement, the muscle best to do this may be either busy contracting or under force from the initial movement (momentum) therefore will have to stop contracting to re-contract to reverse the movement (that should give you a tip there), that takes way to long for combat and also sometimes the ideal muscle to do the initial move your doing is the best bio mechanical choice under stationary conditions but fighting against momentum isnt quite as adequate anymore so an understanding of bio-mechanics is needed to get around this fact and to learn or invent other ways to use your limbs and physics to avoid being slowed down in the process of this situation or combination of movements.
believe me this happens all the time and there are as many tricks to avoid being slowed by momentum as their are to say maybe slipping right and throwing perfect bodyshots or uppercuts or head movement, or throwing a fast jab. people neglect to break down movement to such a degree but they are missing out greatley on the overall package when they do this.

[wayneflint]

Originally Posted by bald_head_slick

The only warning I would give about "bouncing" is that you can get timed if you meet a guy who has superior speed/timing/"flinch".

Being timed is not the weakness of bouncing unless were talking about any old bouncing from side to side like they teach in shadey kickboxing classes, but i believe we are talking about the bouncing that occurs which is common and taught in most boxing footwork, as i said before its pressure and range that will fuck you up bouncing, lack of a quality stance therefore variation of movement and boxing basics is what will get you timed, not bouncing

[Slacker]

Originally Posted by rongee90

Well if bouncing is no good, somebody better tell Muhammed Ali he was doing it wrong all those years ago! half you bloody clowns don't know what your talking about! : )

ps: do any of you watch boxing?

Some fighters (Ali, RJJ, PBF, Whitaker, Martinez) get by with bad habits because of their superior reflexes and athleticism. Don't try those things at your gym, unless you want to get hurt.

So if you can bounce and move on par with Ali, slip punches like Mike Tyson, dodge and counter like Whitaker, RJJ or PBF...sure. Go for it.

Back to the original question...

If you do anything over and over, you are likely to get timed. In fights were less godly fighters bounce, you always hear the opposing trainer say:

"He's bouncing and he plants his feet before he... (insert habit here). When he stops, step to the side and... (insert good advice here)."

[HENDO]

Some of ya'll are jealous haters.

[bald_head_slick]

Originally Posted by wayneflint

Being timed is not the weakness of bouncing unless were talking about any old bouncing from side to side like they teach in shadey kickboxing classes, but i believe we are talking about the bouncing that occurs which is common and taught in most boxing footwork, as i said before its pressure and range that will fuck you up bouncing, lack of a quality stance therefore variation of movement and boxing basics is what will get you timed, not bouncing

I am not sure where you are coming from, but the TS was pretty specific about bouncing in the context of moving (Aki, Direll, Calderon, etc...). Unless you know of some other "bouncing" I am thinking of the bouncing that occurs when getting up on the balls of your feet and moving quickly away, around, and into your opponent. Stick (to the canvas and punch) and Move.

I think you are wrong about pressure beating bouncing. Pressure only beats "bouncing" when, as I mentioned, attrition sets in and the "bouncer" can no longer bounce. Or the Boxer is just the lesser fighter. Bouncing (all things being equal with conditioning) beats pressure EVERY time. It is classic Boxing.

As far as range? I don't even get where this enters the equation. Being long won't help you if a guy has superior timing. He will just bait you to punch bounce out of range, then bounce back in to counter. Or the opposite, bounce in, get work, and bounce out. Long arms will just have you flailing.

As far as your timing comment? Timing is just timing. You can be the most fundamentally sound fighter on the planet. If a guy has great instinctive timing he can find an opening because punching/fatigue creates them. Timing is a gift which can be enhanced by training, but it is a gift. "Feeling/predicting" when a guy is going to be at a spot or coming in allows a guy with timing and flinch to capitalize.

I am really trying hard to process your string of posts.

[wayneflint]

Im aware of the footwork your refering too i havent mistaken i believe, keep thinking bald i have a tendancy to throw people off, pressure beats bouncing trust me, and by range i mean a few little tricks that can be done using feel, touch and resistance of sorts and other means to have your opponent feeling out of range or in range and gradually shortening or lengthening his perception of his range and range in general as a tactic\.

I sparred with an experienced pro boxer who was very good at this for a few month having 16 years experience competing in combat sports primarily as an outside fighter in all styles im quite aware of my range with any of my limbs and was very impressed when he finally explained what and how he was doing it, i was taught to fight favouring a bouncy type style of movement in TKD because of many reasons i mixed in boxing footwork from roughly 8 years old or about there it seems from watching back in old videos, and i can guarantee it has its place like many other movements in combat but has flaws all the same like any other movement in combat, not going to go into great detail as i gave you a huge clue in earlier posts and a poster seems to allready be on the right track.

I thought the reasons this footwork could be exposed would be obvious to any fighter and even more so to a fighter giving advice as a coach i would think you could see much deeper into physically whats going on in the movements to understand the other many cons to this type of movement in terms of economy alone as some other poster has already picked up on it seems before i clued you on why that was, i dont want to accidentally give owt useful away on a forums if it isnt already quite common knowledge which it seems it isnt, the bio-mechanics of the human body can be quite complicated lol maybe someone else will be willing to spend time explaining the intricacies of a stance in combat sports and why its good to have one and maintain it as much as possible throughout. then go from there.. it takes some time.

[LongJab]

Originally Posted by wayneflint

This has all been disscussed before in much finer detail with some good very active coaches that are on these forums and many other good boxing forums around, seriously why doesnt anyone use the search function? what a waste of time it has been for some very good coaches to give their insight to just have the same question asked every week
, half of the answers you are getting is just the same stuff thats being said in good posts but regurgitated over and over by someone who uses the search functions but doesnt get the full picture, you will get much more info if you research it, this has been done to death and should be obvious to anyone with experience in competing, you can do what you like in there, just watch your not there to be exposed, bouncing around is a movement to be exposed when you come across a better fighter, if its habit by then, its a weakness, like ive said in many posts if somthing can be exposed your leaving it to chance weather or not your opponent will or has the skill to expose the weakness, thats not smart leaving it down to luck, of course unless you are a modern Ali like some on these forums, drop your hands, do the shuffle, switch hit and show boat to the crowds, we'll all see you in the olympics.

^ Must make a sticky

[bald_head_slick]

Wow man. I am trying hard to even understand this.

Originally Posted by wayneflint

Im aware of the footwork your refering too i havent mistaken i believe, keep thinking bald i have a tendancy to throw people off, pressure beats bouncing trust me, and by range i mean a few little tricks that can be done using feel, touch and resistance of sorts and other means to have your opponent feeling out of range or in range and gradually shortening or lengthening his perception of his range and range in general as a tactic\.

I never said it didn't, but Pressure fighters and Movement based fighters are usually each others' poison. Other than a Power guy for the Pressure fighter. Other than that? I can't really understand the point you are trying to make here.

Originally Posted by wayneflint

I sparred with an experienced pro boxer who was very good at this for a few month having 16 years experience competing in combat sports primarily as an outside fighter in all styles im quite aware of my range with any of my limbs and was very impressed when he finally explained what and how he was doing it, i was taught to fight favouring a bouncy type style of movement in TKD because of many reasons i mixed in boxing footwork from roughly 8 years old or about there it seems from watching back in old videos, and i can guarantee it has its place like many other movements in combat but has flaws all the same like any other movement in combat, not going to go into great detail as i gave you a huge clue in earlier posts and a poster seems to allready be on the right track.

Brother, this is one sentence!

Originally Posted by wayneflint

I thought the reasons this footwork could be exposed would be obvious to any fighter and even more so to a fighter giving advice as a coach i would think you could see much deeper into physically whats going on in the movements to understand the other many cons to this type of movement in terms of economy alone as some other poster has already picked up on it seems before i clued you on why that was, i dont want to accidentally give owt useful away on a forums if it isnt already quite common knowledge which it seems it isnt, the bio-mechanics of the human body can be quite complicated lol maybe someone else will be willing to spend time explaining the intricacies of a stance in combat sports and why its good to have one and maintain it as much as possible throughout. then go from there.. it takes some time.

It is obvious how bouncing is exposed and/or exposes a fighter. It is outlined in many posts from many perspectives. What isn't obvious is your shut down of the discussion and "super secret" nebulous explanations.

Combat sport knowledge is to be shared and participation encouraged. I have never thought much of the "secret religious-ish knowledge" beliefs or types. Much respect to you brother, but if you don't like the content of a discussion why shut down others? In combat sports you are ALWAYS learning, forgetting, and learning again. It is all fun.

[wayneflint]

Originally Posted by bald_head_slick

Wow man. I am trying hard to even understand this.

Im afraid i dont understand your need to keep mentioning that you dont understand my posts, and i dont feel a need to spend hours explaining my train of thought to one person on a boxing forums, i would be insulted if so many others didnt understand them either but they seem to get where im coming from so never mind, ive tried to clean up my posts a bit and thats all i can do.

I never said it didn't, but Pressure fighters and Movement based fighters are usually each others' poison. Other than a Power guy for the Pressure fighter. Other than that? I can't really understand the point you are trying to make here.

Its very simple, range is the only thing that makes bouncing a relativley safe manouver.


Brother, this is one sentence!

I apologise my specialty is combat sports not english, we're not on an english and grammar forums here.

It is obvious how bouncing is exposed and/or exposes a fighter. It is outlined in many posts from many perspectives. What isn't obvious is your shut down of the discussion and "super secret" nebulous explanations.

Not so much that im super secretive, just that ive spent hours on these forums trying to help people to just have them scan through my posts ive put time into only to take irrelevant points to use them for childish point scoring, ive learned my time can be better spent else where.

Combat sport knowledge is to be shared and participation encouraged. I have never thought much of the "secret religious-ish knowledge" beliefs or types. Much respect to you brother, but if you don't like the content of a discussion why shut down others? In combat sports you are ALWAYS learning, forgetting, and learning again. It is all fun.

Im not into secrets, i find for the most part i can explain away everything to still have people not understand or to just say im wrong anyway, so certainly no need to keep any of it secret, when i find someone that understands i teach them everything i know if they want to learn. I wasnt shutting down others, i was trying to say that its the same questions over and over and i think these type of disscussions would be more interesting and more useful in developing new ideas to everyone including the poster if people made some effort to dig up some useful previous posts on the forums before just starting a fresh every time. otherwise its just the same stuff regurgitated all the time, we should be trying to look deeper all the time, everytime we think about or disscuss a topic, at least thats how i like to do things.

[wayneflint]

forget that post i just spent an hour addressing each point properly to have it all cleared and only a segment posted.. lol, i may reply properly again later when i have time

[rokurota]

it gets the other guy used to you moving your whole body, so when you throw a punch they do not realize it as quickly since when you start moving they dont know its not just another bounce at first, if you stop bouncing for a split second and feint they will be more likely to over react, you can also bounce and keep a foot down while the rest of your body is bouncing and throw a jab halfway through the bounce etc. etc.

if you just bounce and fight like someone who doesnt bounce then it is obviously a stupid thing to do, but you can be smart with it and use it to trick your opponents reflexes and throw them off. it also keeps you really light on your feet and loosens you up.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu2nKcfMS9A[/ame]

there are some more reasons but they are super top secret and way to complicated to explain so dont even ask

[wayneflint]

correct you can work a bag jabbing and throwing a right like this, but even then you arent in full control of when your able to throw an effective shot at the bag, its just always there to throw on so it works, an opponent isnt always there, yes very complicated, next

[wayneflint]

it also has your feet tangled up and in positions that criples your variation in movement and variation in strikes, aswell as power in certain or most shots, the series of movements your refering too also tend to mak for sloppy punches due to shoddy positioning to return the shots, half of your speed is the return of a shot, a very large % of fighters are not losing speed on the extention of a shot but on the return.