Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-04-2007, 09:56 AM   #1
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,771
vCash: 1000
Default Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson:

Power: Tyson 10, Dempsey 9, Marciano 8.5, Frazier 7.5

Tale of the Tape: ( height, weight, and reach ) Dempsey 5.5, Tyson 5.5, Frazier 5, Marciano 4

Hand and foot speed. Dempsey 9.5, Tyson 8.5, Frazier 7.5, Marciano 5.5

Boxing ability and versatility on OFFENSE ( Jab, hook , cross, body punch, uppercut, in-fight out fight, combinations, feints ) : Tyson 8.5, Dempsey 8, Marciano 6, Frazier 5.5

Boxing ability and versatility on DEFENSE ( avoid getting hit…..block, slip, duck, clinching power and technique, parry, footwork to get out of the way ) Dempsey 6.5, Tyson 6.5, Frazier 6, Marciano 5.5

Stamina: Marciano 10, Frazier 10, Dempsey 7.5, Tyson 7

Durability: Dempsey 8, Tyson 8, Marciano 8, Frazier 6

Heart and will to win: Marciano 10, Frazier 9.5, Dempsey 8, Tyson 5

Ring Generalship, Smarts, and Poise in the ring: Marciano 9, Dempsey 7, Frazier 6.5, Tyson 5

Quality of opposition fought: Frazier 9.5, Tyson 9, Dempsey 6.5, Marciano 6

Intimidation ability and killer instinct: Tyson 9.5, Dempsey 9, Marciano 8, Frazier 7.5

Total score, and its close:

Dempsey 84.5
Tyson 82.5
Frazier 81.0
Marciano 80.5
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 12-04-2007, 10:01 AM   #2
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 36,374
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

I agree with a lot of your marks - assuming they are relative to each other and in so far as it is possible to mark fighters - here are my objectins.


First, I see no reason to score Marciano higher than Frazier for Heart and will to win, I would score them both with a ten.

Tyson should rank alongside Dempsey for hand and footspeed, but Dempsey should be higher than Tyson in terms of defence.

I know you are not particuarly interested, but I think that Dempsey should be scored lower for opposition faced. We can agree to disagree on this point, however.
McGrain is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2007, 10:09 AM   #3
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,771
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
McGrain I agree with a lot of your marks - assuming they are relative to each other and in so far as it is possible to mark fighters - here are my objectins.
Thanks, and I expect a lot of objections in this thread. And I reserve the right to edit the scores a tad if I missed something.

Quote:
First, I see no reason to score Marciano higher than Frazier for Heart and will to win, I would score them both with a ten.
I do. Frazier was not always in the best of shape, he allowed Futch to stop a fight for him without much protest, and his body language was not as strong as Marciano’s when bad things happened to him.

Quote:
Tyson should rank alongside Dempsey for hand and footspeed, but Dempsey should be higher than Tyson in terms of defence.
Dempsey moved his feet quicker than Tyson did, but Tyson had a pretty good guard, and at his best good head movement too. Hard call.

Quote:
I know you are not particularly interested, but I think that Dempsey should be scored lower for opposition faced. We can agree to disagree on this point, however.
Quality of opposition faced is different than quality of opposition beat. In addition, Dempsey had 80+ fights which is tops on the list.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2007, 10:17 AM   #4
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 36,374
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
I do. Frazier was not always in the best of shape, he allowed Futch to stop a fight for him without much protest, and his body language was not as strong as Marciano’s when bad things happened to him.
As you say; this is reasonable actually. But Frazier's performance against Ali in III is one of the single most extraordinary things I've ever seen in the ring (maybe only pegged by Ali's that night, actually) and it was based primarily upon heart and will to win. Those boys were actually past that stuff and digging in the rock bed. I agree that Frazier did not protest, and in my opinion he showed enough distress in the corner for Futch to pull him. However, I don't think you can expect Frazier to fight Ali, Futch, and hold himself in place, so I don't hold the lack of protest against him even .1%



Quote:
Dempsey moved his feet quicker than Tyson did, but Tyson had a pretty good guard, and at his best good head movement too. Hard call.
I always feel that Tyson's head movement is rythmic. It is designed to ditch the jab, primarily, not individual shots - Dempsey's, by comparison, flows beautifully, he can punch properly of the back of his head movement and he looks to me as if he is tottally without rythym or pattern - impossible to time then, except by way of luck. I consider Dempsey's head movement clearly superiour to Tyson's, who's head movement is clearly superior to every great heavyweigh.
McGrain is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2007, 10:34 AM   #5
Maxmomer
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,690
vCash: 619
Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

I think Marciano and Dempsey should be even as far as heart goes. Other than that, I pretty much agree.
Maxmomer is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2007, 10:35 AM   #6
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 36,374
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxmomer
I think Marciano and Dempsey should be even as far as heart goes. Other than that, I pretty much agree.
You think Dempsey showed more heart in his career than Frazier?!

When?
McGrain is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2007, 10:42 AM   #7
Maxmomer
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,690
vCash: 619
Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
You think Dempsey showed more heart in his career than Frazier?!

When?
I left Frazier out by mistake, I simply meant to say I think they should all be rated even in the heart department. Frazier may have been out of shape for some fights, Dempsey may have taken too many long lay offs, but any of them would have rather died than give up in the ring, and that's what matters most to me.
Maxmomer is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2007, 10:53 AM   #8
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,632
vCash: 238
Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Tale of the Tape: ( height, weight, and reach ) Dempsey 5.5, Tyson 5.5, Frazier 5, Marciano 4
You think a ripped 6'1 187lbs guy is physically equally matched with a ripped 5'11 216lbs guy?
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2007, 11:05 AM   #9
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,771
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
You think a ripped 6'1 187lbs guy is physically equally matched with a ripped 5'11 216lbs guy?
Tyson is about 5'9 1/2" or 5'10", and has a limted 71" reach. Dempsey, though much lighter is taller by about 3-31/2" taller , and has 6 " in reach over Tyson. So yeah, about equal on the tale of the tape.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2007, 11:38 AM   #10
OLD FOGEY
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,835
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson:

Power: Tyson 10, Dempsey 9, Marciano 8.5, Frazier 7.5

Tale of the Tape: ( height, weight, and reach ) Dempsey 5.5, Tyson 5.5, Frazier 5, Marciano 4

Hand and foot speed. Dempsey 9.5, Tyson 8.5, Frazier 7.5, Marciano 5.5

Boxing ability and versatility on OFFENSE ( Jab, hook , cross, body punch, uppercut, in-fight out fight, combinations, feints ) : Tyson 8.5, Dempsey 8, Marciano 6, Frazier 5.5

Boxing ability and versatility on DEFENSE ( avoid getting hit…..block, slip, duck, clinching power and technique, parry, footwork to get out of the way ) Dempsey 6.5, Tyson 6.5, Frazier 6, Marciano 5.5

Stamina: Marciano 10, Frazier 10, Dempsey 7.5, Tyson 7

Durability: Dempsey 8, Tyson 8, Marciano 8, Frazier 6

Heart and will to win: Marciano 10, Frazier 9.5, Dempsey 8, Tyson 5

Ring Generalship, Smarts, and Poise in the ring: Marciano 9, Dempsey 7, Frazier 6.5, Tyson 5

Quality of opposition fought: Frazier 9.5, Tyson 9, Dempsey 6.5, Marciano 6

Intimidation ability and killer instinct: Tyson 9.5, Dempsey 9, Marciano 8, Frazier 7.5

Total score, and its close:

Dempsey 84.5
Tyson 82.5
Frazier 81.0
Marciano 80.5
The trouble with this excercise is that it is totally personal and subjective. Why is Dempsey way ahead of Frazier in offense? Frazier was able to hit Ali often in 1971. Dempsey did not do as well not only with Tunney, but also with Gibbons. Why is Marciano, with the best knockout record against Hall-of-Famers, champions, rated fighters, and general opposition (88% to Dempsey's 63%) a less powerful puncher?

Also, some factors might simply overwhelm others. It is sort of like comparing the New England Patriots to another team and giving the other team an edge at tight end and then using that to cancel out the quarterbacks. Sorry. It just doesn't work that way.
OLD FOGEY is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2007, 11:49 AM   #11
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,632
vCash: 238
Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Tyson is about 5'9 1/2" or 5'10", and has a limted 71" reach. Dempsey, though much lighter is taller by about 3-31/2" taller , and has 6 " in reach over Tyson. So yeah, about equal on the tale of the tape.
There is a reason that there are weight classes, not height classes.

Height can be an advantage but it's limited and depends on the way you use it. Spinks at 6'3 had plenty of trouble with 5'7 Qawi, because what Qawi gave up in height and reach, he made up for in physical strength.


By the way, Tyson was not 5'9 or 5'10. With HBO they measured him on camera and he was 5'11 or 5'11 1/2. This picture is not a photoshopped thing: they showed it on television.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


So Dempsey has about two inches on him, hardly enough to make up for thirty pounds of muscle that Tyson has on him.
Just look:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]



[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2007, 11:55 AM   #12
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,771
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
OLD FOGEY The trouble with this exercise is that it is totally personal and subjective. Why is Dempsey way ahead of Frazier in offense?
Because he has a good right hand and can in or out fight. Fraizer was mostly a hooker.

Quote:
Frazier was able to hit Ali often in 1971. Dempsey did not do as well not only with Tunney, but also with Gibbons.
Gibbons and Tunney had the stamina to move all day long. Ali took breaks, which is where Frazier got to him more often than not.

Quote:
Why is Marciano, with the best knockout record against Hall-of-Famers, champions, rated fighters, and general opposition (88% to Dempsey's 63%) a less powerful puncher?
I'm going on pure power here. Marciano was more of an attrition type of puncher. His better stamina, and ring generalship lead to his high Ko %. Other things to consider are this Marciano did not fight out of his prime like Dempsey, Tyson and Frazier did. Rocky also had a padded record on the way up which slightly inflated his KO %. I also feel Dempsey KO'd harder to stop fighters, and in most cases in shorter order. But again, this is pure power I'm rating here. IMO, Demspey had a little more than Rocky did.

Quote:
Also, some factors might simply overwhelm others. It is sort of like comparing the New England Patriots to another team and giving the other team an edge at tight end and then using that to cancel out the quarterbacks. Sorry. It just doesn't work that way.
I see you points. Its not an end all be all, rather a macro sense of where they stand vs each other various categories.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2007, 11:58 AM   #13
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,771
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
There is a reason that there are weight classes, not height classes.

Height can be an advantage but it's limited and depends on the way you use it. Spinks at 6'3 had plenty of trouble with 5'7 Qawi, because what Qawi gave up in height and reach, he made up for in physical strength.


By the way, Tyson was not 5'9 or 5'10. With HBO they measured him on camera and he was 5'11 or 5'11 1/2. This picture is not a photoshopped thing: they showed it on television.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


So Dempsey has about two inches on him, hardly enough to make up for thirty pounds of muscle that Tyson has on him.
Just look:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]



[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Was Tyson in shoes for this photo? Numbers are often fudged in boxing. I have heard people who have meet Tyson say he is shorter than 5'11 1/2".

I'll go with them over what is " reported ".
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2007, 11:58 AM   #14
prime
BOX! Writing Champion
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Guadalajara, Jal., Mexico
Posts: 1,229
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Good work.

Against a swarmer, I rate Tyson the highest of the four on the strength of greater power, speed, assortment of effective punches with both hands, combination prowess, countering ability, chin and defense. All wonderful tools in a shoot-out.

Dempsey is a close second, scoring just a bit lower on power, speed, chin. Just as a sample regarding chin, I cannot ignore that Firpo shocked Dempsey to the canvas in the very first stanzas, whereas Thomas' right, Tucker's uppercut and Bruno's lefts and huge rabbit punches simply elicited a disdainful snort from Tyson. And with respect to power and speed, Dempsey's destruction of Willard is for the ages, yet was hardly repeated against twiggy yet feisty Carpentier or the technical Gibbons. On the other hand, Berbick's drunken dance was followed by crushing victories over Thomas, Biggs, Tubbs, Holmes, Spinks, Bruno and Williams. Greater mayhem over bigger men.

Frazier's face-first approach was potentially disastrous against a truly powerful hitter, yet his indomitable spirit, durability and undeniable power in that extraordinary left hook and crushing right to the body would allow him to seize victory against many Quarry-like fighters.

Marciano never ceased to seek victory. He hit well with both hands and had great killer instinct. His 49-0 is a tribute to a man who truly felt like a champion at heart. But a 38-year-old fighter, however great, dropped him early and truly stung him late. Besides, his punches were comparatively slow and, contrary to the legends I read as a kid, one was not usually all it would take.

Against a boxer, I rate Frazier first, Tyson second, Dempsey third and Marciano fourth. It was amazing to see how at FOTC, when Ali first tried to dance away, Frazier hopped along right with him, never missing a beat and immediately pinned him against the ropes. Not even a boxer as fast and tall as Ali could escape that brutal body attack nor those killer swinging hooks to the head. Frazier was there for 15 rounds, with the kitchen sink to boot.
prime is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2007, 12:23 PM   #15
OLD FOGEY
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,835
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Because he has a good right hand and can in or out fight. Fraizer was mostly a hooker.



Gibbons and Tunney had the stamina to move all day long. Ali took breaks, which is where Frazier got to him more often than not.



I'm going on pure power here. Marciano was more of an attrition type of puncher. His better stamina, and ring generalship lead to his high Ko %. Other things to consider are this Marciano did not fight out of his prime like Dempsey, Tyson and Frazier did. Rocky also had a padded record on the way up which slightly inflated his KO %. I also feel Dempsey KO'd harder to stop fighters, and in most cases in shorter order. But again, this is pure power I'm rating here. IMO, Demspey had a little more than Rocky did.



I see you points. Its not an end all be all, rather a macro sense of where they stand vs each other various categories.
A. Who was ever able to stop or negate Frazier's offense. Foreman just blew him away. Ellis, Quarry, Machen and the others all ended up eating that left hook. Dempsey went to a slow draw with Miske in 1918. Gibbons to some extent, and Tunney to a great extent, also checkmated his offense.

B. Marciano fought to 32, the same age as Dempsey and Frazier (not counting the one comeback draw). Dempsey and Frazier just started slipping at a younger age.

C. Marciano's record is no more padded than Dempsey's. Both fought some mediocre opponents on the way up, and that is irrelevant in the case of either man in my opinion as both actually performed better against better opposition once they hit their strides. In his last 14 fights, six against Hall-of-Famers, seven against champions or championship claimants, and 13 against men who were or would be rated, most in the top 2-3 positions, Marciano won 14 with 13 knockouts.

4. I would dispute that Dempsey was clearly the better early puncher or that Marciano won generally by attrition. Dempsey ko'd 43 of 81 opponents in 4 rounds or less--53%. Marciano ko'd 28 of 49 opponents in 4 rounds or less--57%. Dempsey carried power into the later rounds, but Marciano clearly was more outstanding in this respect.
OLD FOGEY is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013