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Old 12-04-2007, 12:37 PM   #16
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Was Tyson in shoes for this photo? Numbers are often fudged in boxing. I have heard people who have meet Tyson say he is shorter than 5'11 1/2".

I'll go with them over what is " reported ".
Good point, but they show his entire body and he's only wearing boxers, i.e. bare feet. If you want me to provide a pic of that as well let me know.


But aside from his height, wouldn't you say that the 30 pounds of natural weight he has on Dempsey is a physical advantage, fighting qualities aside?
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Old 12-04-2007, 01:14 PM   #17
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Good point, but they show his entire body and he's only wearing boxers, i.e. bare feet. If you want me to provide a pic of that as well let me know.


But aside from his height, wouldn't you say that the 30 pounds of natural weight he has on Dempsey is a physical advantage, fighting qualities aside?
Here it is. Enjoy!

BORKED
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Old 12-04-2007, 02:45 PM   #18
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Great thread.

Not sure the 30 pounds is natural weight though. Dempsey with modern training would be heavier. Just look at how much weight Holyfield put on.
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Old 12-04-2007, 02:56 PM   #19
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

I think in Comp, Marciano should rank 2nd, behind Fraizer.
Than Tyson 3rd, and Dempsey last.
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Old 12-04-2007, 03:06 PM   #20
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

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Originally Posted by Ezzard
Great thread.

Not sure the 30 pounds is natural weight though. Dempsey with modern training would be heavier. Just look at how much weight Holyfield put on.
Right. Holyfield was 81K light heavyweight ( 178.2 pounds ) and started out as a pro below 190 pounds in the cruiser weight division.

Both Dempsey and Holyfield had similar builds, so it is plausible that with the same training methods, and nutrition, Dempsey could be 205-210 pounds, which is not too far from Tyson's peak weight.

But for this thread, I went on their peak weights.
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Old 12-04-2007, 08:07 PM   #21
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Right. Holyfield was 81K light heavyweight ( 178.2 pounds ) and started out as a pro below 190 pounds in the cruiser weight division.

Both Dempsey and Holyfield had similar builds, so it is plausible that with the same training methods, and nutrition, Dempsey could be 205-210 pounds, which is not too far from Tyson's peak weight.

But for this thread, I went on their peak weights.

Dempsey at 187 is thin. Real thin. He has the frame and the overall size/build to put on 30lbs in a way that would not hurt his movement and stamina overtly to the point that he would suffer.

Tysons weight would be mostly natural and that is a great thing about Tyson. He was 15 and 200lbs. I give the over all edge in size to Tyson. But Dempsey would be a natural to grow/increase his size. Frazier and Marciano, not as much.

Who I think would really run away with increasing his build and not suffering because of it was Gene Tunney. I think that Tunney would be around 215-220 with modern training/nutrition and just as fast and just as scientific.

ATG swarmers almost always boil down to Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier, Tyson, which means we are due for another one.

I wonder if you could boil down great boxers, boxer-punchers, and power hitters to four a piece.
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Old 12-04-2007, 11:44 PM   #22
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

dempseys competition should rank the lowest IMO. marcianos defintley above dempsey. I also think you underate marcianos skill. He was alot more cagey than one must think, he may have looked foolish but then you got in the ring with him and you came out with a newfound respect of his defensive skills. louis, walcott, moore, lastarza all remarked on marciano being underated in the defensive department.


Power: 1. Tyson
2. Marciano
3. Frazier
4. Dempsey




I dont think tyson was a swarmer, he was more of a slugger
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Old 12-05-2007, 05:55 AM   #23
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langford

ATG swarmers almost always boil down to Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier, Tyson, which means we are due for another one.

I wonder if you could boil down great boxers, boxer-punchers, and power hitters to four a piece.
I suppose I could do one on the great boxers, the great sluggers, the and the great super heavyweights.
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Old 12-05-2007, 06:38 AM   #24
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
louis, walcott, moore, lastarza all remarked on marciano being underated in the defensive department.
Walcott said of Marciano that he was, "easy to hit but hard to hit clean" which obviously is a nightmare for somebody like Walcott. I found that remark interesting.
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Old 12-05-2007, 06:54 AM   #25
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

In terms of competition,
1. Frazier
2. Tyson
3. Marciano
4. Dempsey

In terms of dominance,
1. Marciano
2. Tyson
3. Dempsey
4. Frazier

Longevity,
1. Tyson (people forget he was fighting and beating ranked heavyweights for almost twenty years)
2. and 3. (tie) Dempsey and Marciano
4. Frazier


Head to head,
1. Tyson
2. Marciano
3. Frazier
4. Dempsey

Looking at courage and intangibles,
1. Marciano
2. Dempsey
3. Frazier
4. Tyson
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Old 12-05-2007, 07:11 AM   #26
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Power: 1. Tyson
2. Marciano
3. Frazier
4. Dempsey
I dont think that Frazier hit as hard as Dempsey.

In terms of all round punching efectivness I would rate Dempsey the best of the three including Tyson.
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Old 12-05-2007, 07:36 AM   #27
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I dont think that Frazier hit as hard as Dempsey.

In terms of all round punching efectivness I would rate Dempsey the best of the three including Tyson.
Marciano knocked out all time great lightheavyweights Moore and Charles.

Frazier destroyed all time great lightheavy Foster in two rounds.

Tyson destroyed all time great lightheavy Spinks in 91 seconds.

Dempsey went the 15 round distance with a lesser than the former mentioned lightheavies Gibbons and got smacked the shit out of him twice by all time great lightheavy Tunney.


I think SuzieQ has the order spot on.
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Old 12-05-2007, 08:07 AM   #28
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Marciano knocked out all time great lightheavyweights Moore and Charles.

Frazier destroyed all time great lightheavy Foster in two rounds.

Tyson destroyed all time great lightheavy Spinks in 91 seconds.

Dempsey went the 15 round distance with a lesser than the former mentioned lightheavies Gibbons
All you are doing here is cherry picking the one Dempsey title fight win that went the distance and holding it up as an unrepresentative example. I frankly do not consider being taken the distance by Tommy Gibbons to be any more damaging than being taken the distance by Ezzard Charles or James Smith. You can cherry pick a case where any dominant champion was taken the distance.

Even if your line of argument was ballanced it would not necisarily follow that Dempsey failed to knock out Gibbons due to lack of power.

Now if you are bringing up the Tunney fight then Tysons post prison fights get starkly drawn into the equation.
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Old 12-05-2007, 10:18 AM   #29
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor

All you are doing here is cherry picking the one Dempsey title fight win that went the distance and holding it up as an unrepresentative example. I frankly do not consider being taken the distance by Tommy Gibbons to be any more damaging than being taken the distance by Ezzard Charles or James Smith. You can cherry pick a case where any dominant champion was taken the distance.

Even if your line of argument was ballanced it would not necisarily follow that Dempsey failed to knock out Gibbons due to lack of power.

Now if you are bringing up the Tunney fight then Tysons post prison fights get starkly drawn into the equation.
What i did was objectively compare the "4 big swarmers" their records against the best light heavyweights they fought. You could add Carpentier in there for good measure, but i believe Gibbons and Tunney were better. It is tough luck for Dempsey that he faced Tunney near the end of his career, but at the same time, Marciano faced Moore at the end of his career. Dempsey is not proven to be able to beat a Tunney, whereas the former mentioned are.

Last edited by GazOC; 10-21-2006 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 12-05-2007, 10:36 AM   #30
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
What i did was objectively compare the "4 big swarmers" their records against the best light heavyweights they fought. You could add Carpentier in there for good measure, but i believe Gibbons and Tunney were better. It is tough luck for Dempsey that he faced Tunney near the end of his career, but at the same time, Marciano faced Moore at the end of his career. Dempsey is not proven to be able to beat a Tunney, whereas the former mentioned are.
but Moore was nowhere near as quick footed as Tunney, and besides it's not like Marciano was that past his best. If u ask me, Rocky would have likely reigned for a few more years
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