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Old 12-05-2007, 12:40 PM   #31
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
What i did was objectively compare the "4 big swarmers" their records against the best light heavyweights they fought. You could add Carpentier in there for good measure, but i believe Gibbons and Tunney were better. It is tough luck for Dempsey that he faced Tunney near the end of his career, but at the same time, Marciano faced Moore at the end of his career. Dempsey is not proven to be able to beat a Tunney, whereas the former mentioned are.
Let us ****yze further.

Dempsey defended his title sucesfully the same number of times as Marciano and like Marciano was taken the distance once. The man who took him the distance was Tommy Gibbons who was never knocked out (he quit against Tunney). Tunney also was never knocked out.

I find it rather extroardinary that you should hold this as a mark against him relative to fighters who were taken the distance by multiple oponents who were knocked out by other people.
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Old 12-05-2007, 12:55 PM   #32
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

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Originally Posted by janitor
Let us ****yze further.

Dempsey defended his title sucesfully the same number of times as Marciano and like Marciano was taken the distance once. The man who took him the distance was Tommy Gibbons who was never knocked out (he quit against Tunney). Tunney also was never knocked out.

I find it rather extroardinary that you should hold this as a mark against him relative to fighters who were taken the distance by multiple oponents who were knocked out by other people.
Well, Michael Spinks was never knocked out except for the Tyson fight either.

Charles was only stopped twice before the Marciano fight, once by Walcott, a hard puncher (once in 4 fights) and once by Marshall when he was green and basically fighting dangerous guys monthly. After the Marciano fight he went downhill. I can grant you that if Gibbons fights the competition and at the rate Charles did that he'd pick up a KO loss as well. Btw, quitting is still not making the finish. The competition Tunney faced doesn't compare to Charles' either (or Moore's or Spinks' for that matter).

Bob Foster i will give you. He was not very durable (against heavyweights).
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Old 12-05-2007, 01:02 PM   #33
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Well, Michael Spinks was never knocked out except for the Tyson fight either.
He also didnt have as many fights at heavyweight as Gibbons. Now a number of people who took Tyson the distance were knocked out.

the only people who held Dempsey to the score cards past six rounds as any stage past his hobo days were-

Billy Miske-never knocked out except by Dempsey
Tommy Gibbons-never knocked out
Gene Tunney-never knocked out

Quote:
Charles was only stopped twice before the Marciano fight, once by Walcott, a hard puncher (once in 4 fights) and once by Marshall when he was green and basically fighting dangerous guys monthly.
Yes. The point is that we do not use Marcianos failure to stop him first time round as an argument against his power.

Quote:
I can grant you that if Gibbons fights the competition and at the rate Charles did that he'd pick up a KO loss as well.
Speculation. Bottom line is he was never knocked out.

Quote:
The competition Tunney faced doesn't compare to Charles' either (or Moore's or Spinks' for that matter).
Charles and Moore I can give you.

Spinks is another matter
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Old 12-05-2007, 03:02 PM   #34
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

[quote=janitor]
Quote:


He also didnt have as many fights at heavyweight as Gibbons. Now a number of people who took Tyson the distance were knocked out.

the only people who held Dempsey to the score cards past six rounds as any stage past his hobo days were-

Billy Miske-never knocked out except by Dempsey
Tommy Gibbons-never knocked out
Gene Tunney-never knocked out



Yes. The point is that we do not use Marcianos failure to stop him first time round as an argument against his power.



Speculation. Bottom line is he was never knocked out.



Charles and Moore I can give you.

Spinks is another matter
1. I have seen the film of Tunney and Gibbons, and if I remember, Gibbons was knocked out. Tunney knocked him down in the 12th and when he got up Tunney knocked him down again. If my memory is not failing me, Gibbons did not beat the count. He was sitting with his legs splayed through the count.
I don't think the referee stopped the fight and I don't think Gibbons quit.

2. I don't think Gibbons and Tunney were in against a lot of really big punchers, especially heavyweight punchers, other than Dempsey. I think to balance not being knocked out much, one should look at the quality of fighters that these men lasted against. Charles and Moore survived a greater number of big punchers.
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Old 12-05-2007, 03:15 PM   #35
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Well, Michael Spinks was never knocked out except for the Tyson fight either.

Charles was only stopped twice before the Marciano fight, once by Walcott, a hard puncher (once in 4 fights) and once by Marshall when he was green and basically fighting dangerous guys monthly. After the Marciano fight he went downhill. I can grant you that if Gibbons fights the competition and at the rate Charles did that he'd pick up a KO loss as well. Btw, quitting is still not making the finish. The competition Tunney faced doesn't compare to Charles' either (or Moore's or Spinks' for that matter).

Bob Foster i will give you. He was not very durable (against heavyweights).
I don't know about Charles being green against Bivins and Marshall in 1943, but he was in the army and not training at all. He took these fights to get money for his family. This is an excuse, of course, but it is also true that neither Bivins and Marshall proved able to stop Charles in rematches after the war.
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:09 PM   #36
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

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Boxing ability and versatility on DEFENSE ( avoid getting hitů..block, slip, duck, clinching power and technique, parry, footwork to get out of the way ) Dempsey 6.5, Tyson 6.5, Frazier 6, Marciano 5.5
I think that's a little generous. I would have given the guy a 2... maybe. He ate absolutely everything that came his way.
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:11 PM   #37
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Marciano was a pretty good defense fighter for a swarmer, Its a myth that the guy ate eveything. The Rocky movies did a lot of harm in regards to Marciano imo.

LarSarza, Charles the 2nd time, and even Moore coulnt land a clean shot on the Rock. They miss a lot of punchings in there fights with the Rock.
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:25 PM   #38
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

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Originally Posted by dmt
but Moore was nowhere near as quick footed as Tunney, and besides it's not like Marciano was that past his best. If u ask me, Rocky would have likely reigned for a few more years
On the other hand, Moore had knockout power whereas Tunney lacked in that apartment. For instance, Moore knocked out heavyweight journeyman Bert Whitehurst who twice went the distance with Liston (although he was down when the final bell rang in one of their fights).

Rocky had the same style as Dempsey and was just as old. Dempsey started younger, but during his championship reign he was taking more vacations than Boris Jeltsin who was out fishing in his private set up fishing lake during national crisis.
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:40 PM   #39
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

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Originally Posted by Dempsey1238
Marciano was a pretty good defense fighter for a swarmer, Its a myth that the guy ate eveything. The Rocky movies did a lot of harm in regards to Marciano imo.

LarSarza, Charles the 2nd time, and even Moore coulnt land a clean shot on the Rock. They miss a lot of punchings in there fights with the Rock.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Watch this and tell me if you see an inkling of defense...

And don't even get me started on missed punches.
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Old 12-05-2007, 04:58 PM   #40
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

Marciano was still a bit green at that time. I talking about his bouts with Walcott, Charles and LarSarza and Moore. He had impove GREATLY since his bout from Lee Savold.

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Look at the big impovement.
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Old 12-05-2007, 05:47 PM   #41
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Rocky had the same style as Dempsey
I asume you would like to qualify this statment.
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Old 12-05-2007, 05:50 PM   #42
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

[quote]
[quote=OLD FOGEY]
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor

1. I have seen the film of Tunney and Gibbons, and if I remember, Gibbons was knocked out. Tunney knocked him down in the 12th and when he got up Tunney knocked him down again. If my memory is not failing me, Gibbons did not beat the count. He was sitting with his legs splayed through the count.
The impresion of many ringsiders was that Gibbons could have beat the count but chose to sit it out James Douglas style.

Quote:
2. I don't think Gibbons and Tunney were in against a lot of really big punchers, especially heavyweight punchers, other than Dempsey.
Tunney might not have been but Gibbons certainly was.
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Old 12-05-2007, 06:32 PM   #43
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

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Originally Posted by janitor
I asume you would like to qualify this statment.
Alright, there is a ton of differences between them, but compared to 40 random other boxers, Dempsey and Marciano will still generally fall in the same style category - unless you only look at Marciano pre-52.

In this case i was referring to the fact that both had a short-career-guaranteeing style.
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Old 12-05-2007, 06:55 PM   #44
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
In this case i was referring to the fact that both had a short-career-guaranteeing style.
Dempsey less so perhaps.

If he had been a more active champion he would probably have enjoyed better longevity.
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Old 12-05-2007, 08:10 PM   #45
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Default Re: Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

i think dempsey was all around superior puncher than perhaps marciano and frazier, but i think in terms of pure power i give the edge to the rock.

i think tyson rates over all of them at his peak in punching abilities and pure power. he actually rates up their with joe louis
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