Muay Thai

[wayneflint]

Originally Posted by Sprawla

I have seen fighter break other fighters forearms from defending kicks, kicks do a lot more damage then punches. There is no padding on your shin.
Shin bone on chin = good night

Can you even read posts before getting all upset about them sprawla? I SAID IN SELF DEFENCE, do you have boxing gloves on your hands when your out and about sprawla? dumbshit, no you dont a fist without a glove can be more powerful because you can drive and pivot, end of, kicking your simply pivoting. if you argue with this then clearly you cant punch, know very little of kicking, or martial arts at all, and cant use your brain to understand simple movements, sorry, what are you doing here again? lol.

[learner]

Reading through the last few posts I would think a stoppage from leg kicks would be a TKO, similar to a stoppage for cuts.

It's getting a little bit like who would win a fight between Predator vs Alien???

Back to punching. Does a Muay Thai fighter have to choose a particular style? Kicker or puncher? If not I'm interested in how they make the transition when executing a combination.

Thanks.

[wayneflint]

Yes it can get silly when talking styles, if competing under muay thai rules you want a more squarer, upright stance than a boxer would probably choose to fight from in a boxing match, if not your asking for it on so many levels, you arent in position to check all kicks and will get caned every time you move, also its not a good position for lead leg kicks or to set up lead leg kicks of your own either. of course this all changes if the rules do.

[dasaint66]

Saenchai Sor Kingstar the best pound for pound Thaiboxer has some serious kicks as well as punches, he's knocked out plenty of people with his fists and legs. Pitting a Boxer against a Thaiboxer is like asking if the New York Giants would be the New York Yankees in a baseball game, totally different sports, each would win in his ruleset. Same thing as an MMA fighter wouldn't last in traditional rules against a boxer/thaiboxer.

[learner]

I absolutely take your word for it about Saenchai Sor Kingstar. So are you saying specifically that his boxing skills and defence match those of a likewise committed professional Boxer? And if so, when he uses his hands does he throw from the Muay Thai stance or is there an adjustment which is needed? Maybe a step or a narrowing of stance to a more typical boxing stance?

Got to get myself on Youtube for some research. Anyone got a list of top Muay Thai fighters with above average boxing skills? Anuwat was mentioned earlier in this thread. There are some great highlight reels on him.
Thanks again.

[viru§™]

Originally Posted by learner

I absolutely take your word for it about Saenchai Sor Kinstar. So are you saying that his boxing skills and defence match those of a likewise committed professional Boxer? And if so, when he uses his hands does he throw from the Muay Thai stance or is there an adjustment which is needed? Maybe a step or a narrowing of stance to a more typical boxing stance?

Got to get myself on Youtube for some research. Anyone got a list of top Muay Thai fighters with above average boxing skills. Anuwat was mentioned earlier in this thread.
Thanks again.

I don't get why anything you're asking matters.

[learner]

A Cultural interest in how fighting arts have developed if I had to really scrutinise it.

[bald_head_slick]

Originally Posted by Sprawla

I dont beleive you have done kicking martial arts from the age of 8 because if you had you would know 1 good leg kick is all it takes and you wont be able to move on your feet. Leg kicks are very effective. Sound like you kick like a spastic if you think it takes to long to get back under control, a good kicker never loses control of his kicks. I spar a thai fighter at my gym who had height and reach advantage over me, i can not get into punches range because everytime i move in he front kicks me in the chest pushing me back and when he round house kicks, they may not always land but beleive me im more worried about defending head kicks then punching because if i try and walk through a kick with a punch i wil be KOd, so i defend those kicks using my forearms and hands.

If a boxer does get into body punching range or uppercut range and sets and punches, if the thai fighter can defend some punches and clinch the boxers neck he can then start smashing the boxer with knees.

Do not be mislead by kicks and think they are slow and uncontroled. There is some very fast, sharp, powerful kickers out there and if you dont defend a kick properly you will be ko'd. A kick has a lot more power then a punch does. A front kick can be just as quick as a jab and the front kick comes from an angle a boxer isnt use to seeing, straight up, boxers dont train to defend that. They will get caught all the time.

It does also depend on the level of fighters, but i think if you get 2 same level fighter the thai fighter will win, he had 8 weapons and can clinch, the boxer can just punch. Muay thai is a much more brutal sport. I never got hurt in boxing, i always have small injuries from muay thai now.

ps.. im not talking about bar fights, and if a thai fighter fought some bum in a pub, he would knock the bum out easily with a kick to the head or leg.

Not at ALL saying I agree with Wayne's points, but...I think you are making a few unfair comparisons.

In a training setting, A MT leg kick and a Boxing blow are nowhere near equivalent. The padding used in Boxing sparring is worlds apart from the padding used for MT kick sparring. A 16oz Boxing glove puts a full 2+ inches of multi-layer impact foam over the impact area. The best MT shin guards (or at least the ones I have seen) don't do so. The MT gloves don't seem to respect power of fist strikes in the least and are INSANELY soft. So soft that I don't feel comfortable using them punching.

As for your issues with the MT fighter... I think they are more due to your Boxing style. I also spar with MT fighters, however I am a rangier James Toney-ish type and found success. Are you a come forward aggressive type? I think this is the source of your issue.

Try this, circle, feint (and back off until you get the timing right), when you catch him square, IMMEDIATELY jab/step DEEP in between his legs with your lead foot cheating toward his outside leg. Then it is time to get work. If he clinches, you need to get a forearm against his thighs and while raising up to get his elbows up, destroy his floating rib. If he doesn't clinch his straight up stance makes him a sucker for an uppercut or overhand shots from either side. If he begins to cover the rib, alternate with pushing him to get his momentum going toward you and pulling back and firing uppercuts and overhands.

This brings me back to the padding issue. If you put me in a padding equivalent of a shin guard? I don't feel an average MT fighter could last long enough in a clinch to focus on knees. I think this is evidenced by the rise in body punching in the UFC. When guys sucked at it? It wasn't a force. Now guys are committing to learning it? Wow. Game changer.

I am in complete agreement with like 85% of what is said, but I really think people need to realize that a striking art is just as good as the looks it gets. If a Boxer open spars he is just as likely to to be ready as any other type fighter.

Also, I think you completely discount MT's lack of head movement or answers for fist strikes other than being "tough". That only works when you are fighting MT guys who's hand game is REALLY poor. Problem is, just as you allude to in Boxing, most MT guys are not trained to deal with an effective user of fists. (My guess is if you do the stats, most MT KO's come from FIST strikes!)

I think at the end of the day a Fighter is only as good as his "looks". If you plan to employ a style against multiple styles in multiple settings, you better damn well train with that goal in mind. That goes for ANY style offighting.

[bald_head_slick]

Originally Posted by mcguirpa

Top post,

I've done both, and whilst I can't claim to be anywhere near as experienced as you my experience mirrors your own.

I only do kickboxing now (American, not Thai, so no kicking below the waist) and every now and again we get someone coming in from a boxing gym who thinks they're going to nail it in sparring. Without fail they all end up getting fucked up from either fast front leg front kicks to the solar plexus (which is my no.1 favourite weapon for defence or attack) or backfist strikes.

The better ones adapt pretty quickly. But early on, boxers just find the difference in angles you can be attacked from a complete headfuck. And that's without kicks to the legs.

Is this a deficiency in Boxing or a deficiency in the fighter?

As your experience suggests, you know Boxing and you know what a Boxer is open to. You exploit that. MT doesn't get the same exposure Boxing does. The average Boxer (or fight fan in general) is completely ignorant of what the MT fighter brings to the table.

If a fighter MT or otherwise transitions without training into a rule set that contains weapons he has never seen he is going to get exploited. Period.

Why does every discussion on Boxing versus any other type of Martial Art rely on the Boxer being a complete unadaptable lunk that is unwilling to watch, train for, and execute a game plan for facing guys using kicks or other styles? If a Boxer is functioning/sparring under an MMA/hybrid rule set he will/should train/execute accordingly.

[dasaint66]

Originally Posted by learner

I absolutely take your word for it about Saenchai Sor Kingstar. So are you saying specifically that his boxing skills and defence match those of a likewise committed professional Boxer? And if so, when he uses his hands does he throw from the Muay Thai stance or is there an adjustment which is needed? Maybe a step or a narrowing of stance to a more typical boxing stance?

Got to get myself on Youtube for some research. Anyone got a list of top Muay Thai fighters with above average boxing skills? Anuwat was mentioned earlier in this thread. There are some great highlight reels on him.
Thanks again.

His reflexes and timing are out of this world, he is a very unorthadoxed fighter that uses a style derived from muay boran, lot's of awkward angled kicks and elbows/punches. I was pointing out that the stereotype that thaiboxers are horrible punchers isn't true. You'll have to watch some of their fights to pinpoint the differences and similarities of their punching styles to western boxers. To answer your stance questions you'll have to watch them closely. Alot of the knockouts come from very fast punches when their opponent is throwing a kick there seems to be a good split second opening in their guard, an opening you won't find in traditional boxing.

[dasaint66]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0o7fjd_BKM[/ame]

[bald_head_slick]

Originally Posted by dasaint66

His reflexes and timing are out of this world, he is a very unorthadoxed fighter that uses a style derived from muay boran, lot's of awkward angled kicks and elbows/punches. I was pointing out that the stereotype that thaiboxers are horrible punchers isn't true. You'll have to watch some of their fights to pinpoint the differences and similarities of their punching styles to western boxers. To answer your stance questions you'll have to watch them closely. Alot of the knockouts come from very fast punches when their opponent is throwing a kick there seems to be a good split second opening in their guard, an opening you won't find in traditional boxing.

This is just wrong. They are horrible punchers on AVERAGE, however there are some AMAZING talents also. To dismiss a general truth with a single example shows that a person doesn't understand the point of a general truth.

[dasaint66]

Originally Posted by bald_head_slick

This is just wrong. They are horrible punchers on AVERAGE, however there are some AMAZING talents also. To dismiss a general truth with a single example shows that a person doesn't understand the point of a general truth.

On the average they are a means to an end. What you might call horrible punches may distract or hurt the opponent enough to set up a good combination. From a boxing point of view that might seem like a horrible punch but from a strategic point of view in a totally different sport with different rules it seems pretty solid to me. The science behind punching in both sports is the same, and I wouldn't doubt the power from either. There's a reason both sports are known for having the most powerful strikes in any. You're obviously not going to see as many punching KO's. Not to go off topic but how many professional boxing matches end in KO on the average?

[dasaint66]

I think the biased opinion might come from wannabe Muay Thai fighters practicing their striking in the octagon with a gimped-out wrestling stance. I see enough KO punches from boxing in Thailand to know that their punches are no joke.

[Sprawla]

Originally Posted by wayneflint

Sprawla i have competed in martial arts for over 16 years, go tell someone who will listen to your weekend MMA class bullshit. kicks take longer to get under control if you miss or connect, this is fact.. and leg kicks hurt and effect mobility over a fight but cant knock you out like you make out they do unless your allready looking for excuses to lose a fight and have no heart, or previous injury... seriously, your point to the argument is just stupid, i stated a leg kick is more of a tactical kick, if your saying its a knockout tool then ill just stop reading your posts now to save time because clearly you know nothing about owt. i seriously doubt you have ever competed before yourself from that post.

Ive competed in many tournemants all over britain in Tae Kwon Do since i was 8 and ive been doing martial arts since i was 6, i was training for the olympics up until i was 13 (kicking only martial art), i then went to thai-boxing for 6 years and competed 13 times in just over 2 of those years when i wasnt actually injured, ive done BJJ for over 3 years now but have never competed and i travelled to trained to box professionally and to coach professionally with a well respected pro boxing coach for numerous more years.. ive been a practitioner of many martial arts my whole life nearly and i dont care if you believe me or not sprawla, people who know me on these forums know, and thats all that matters to me.

The breaks your refering to from kicks can be because of mistakes made to condition shins which actually wreck them, if wolfs law was as so many believe it to be then there would be no need to kick with the shins, because you would condition the feet to a point to be able to kick with them instead, right? lol. breaks are caused from impact on the shins during sparring or fights or shin conditioning, huge impacts over tiny surface area = bad idea, this causes fine cracks/damage over time and eventually causes breaks, the key to conditioning is to get a large impact spread evenly over the shin/striking area, the striken surface must be able to conform to the shape of the limb used, not vise versa. this protects the bone from recieving airline cracks/damage which can be caused and will also densen the bone due to the impact.

i was talking about the forearm getting broken, not the shin. That just proves the power of a kick. I have seen fights stopped with 3 leg kicks. If a fighter can not continue from a leg kick that is classed as a KO. I dont beleive you have done kicking martial arts because you would know what damage a leg kick can do. Or maybe no one at your shitty taekwondo club could throw good leg kicks.

Sound like you also think you are a doctor or proffessor. Telling me about the science behind breaking shins. You sound like a complete wanker too me actually.