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Old 07-01-2011, 09:27 AM   #1
LongJab
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Default Lining up the right hand

When throwing the right hand, what is the ideal position to be in when throwing it??

Should your opponent be lined up off your lead foot, rear foot or in the middle? I use a slightly square stance with weight on the rear leg.
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Old 07-01-2011, 10:47 PM   #2
BoxinScienceUSA
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Default Re: Lining up the right hand

if that's the base you're going with (not my particular favorite) then line it up off the base you're used to. hit isolated targets like a point on the bag, double end bag, or place a piece of tape on the mirror for you to aim at. hopefully your ppl are not using two mitts for your 1-2 (laft jab into their left hand, straight right into their right) because this will not encourage the accuracy you're looking for (i am a strong believer of the 1-2 into the right hand on mitts).

with your stance i'm going to predict you throw your right hand a lot already (your stance is made for a jab to set up a right, high pressure, and strong right hands).

more accurately to answer your question:

when you stand in the stance you describe, when you line your lead left toes with his lead left toes you will be in position for a true right cross that will rotate the head around the brain stem, when you hit it on the tip of the chin (kind of the same positioning of a narrow standing boxer would have if he sidesteps right and throws a flash right hand).
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Old 07-01-2011, 11:00 PM   #3
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Default Re: Lining up the right hand

[quote=BoxinScienceUSA;10076089]if that's the base you're going with (not my particular favorite) then line it up off the base you're used to. hit isolated targets like a point on the bag, double end bag, or place a piece of tape on the mirror for you to aim at. hopefully your ppl are not using two mitts for your 1-2 (laft jab into their left hand, straight right into their right) because this will not encourage the accuracy you're looking for (i am a strong believer of the 1-2 into the right hand on mitts).

with your stance i'm going to predict you throw your right hand a lot already (your stance is made for a jab to set up a right, high pressure, and strong right hands).quote]

You are correct. I find this first part interesting. Could you explain more?

I am tend to 'trigger step' to the left with my lead foot and hit my opponent with a straight right. I like to do this both off the jab/ double jab or a dip/slip and lead right. This enables me to throw a straight right instead of a cross when my right shoulder is aligned with their head/chin. I feel Im better fighting on the inside and like ot do my work up close. I have tried a more angled stange throwing crosses from long distance, but I would always overreach...
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Old 07-02-2011, 12:30 AM   #4
BoxinScienceUSA
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Default Re: Lining up the right hand

lol ... "trigger step". the only place i've seen that term is from a book called something like "streetfighter: boxing for self defense" and surprisingly it is the best book i've ever seen on teaching the basics for boxing (once you get past all the "watch out 'cause this punch could kill someone" stuff).

not sure what first part you're talking about so i'll give it a stab:

your stance is your body language, and i'll read it like a book. are there going to be twists and turns in the plot? sure. but working with probabilities i'm usaully right.

someone with a narrow stance is "in line" to apply a force straight off the shoulders with a long jab and a straight right. someone with a more square stance is primed for the right and not in the best position for a strong jab (a square stance the jab is driven from the shoulders and a narrow stance the jab is forced off from pushing the back leg). since you're not in great jabbing position i know that you're earger to use the jab primarily as a set up for the right. 3-4 out of 5 times a square stance is throwing the jab with a right hand right behind it. a square stance i might move into your right hand to draw it then counter. a narrow stance i'll move to my right to draw your jab and counter it. when i can take your main game away, lots of times everything else falls apart.

if you are fighting from a square stance be careful with your "trigger step" to the left. if they move to their left at the same time then the force from your punch could end up perpendicular to your base and you'll end up knocking yourself down (you may have witnessed this when watching sparring/am fights ... someone knocking themselves over from their own punch >>>> bad base and force of punch was perpendicular).

and if you're talking about the tape on the mirror stuff, all i'm talking about is accuracy, rather precision. if i use my grade 10 chemistry terms:

accuracy: hitting the desired target
precision: consitently hitting another target than the desired (aiming for the bullseye but landing in the big black 20 most of the time. i'm precise but not accurate)

obviously its best if you are both accurate and precise.

let me know if that helps.
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Old 07-03-2011, 03:53 PM   #5
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Default Re: Lining up the right hand

The trigger step ive heared of is from more thai boxing/kickboxing primarily used for a few strikes and kicks, the classic boxing strike is planting both feet while throwing and rotation along with bone allignment is what generates power, rather than reaching or thrusting forward, like this move promotes.

Good post boxing science, however i dont follow your logic in how you say you can determine a few points you ve made on the posters technique through his squared stance.
the points on not driving with the back foot with one jab and not using the shoulder with the other jab,Ive never heared of a more square stance taking away from the left hand, nor it determining wether or not your driving with the leg or shoulder for the jab? that doesnt make sense, with a more square stance your actually activating a lot stronger muscle for driving with the jab and also putting the driving knee in a more favourable position for distance in the drive. usually with any jab it is both pushing from the back foot and using the shoulder that throws the punch. the shoulder is like a launch pad to bring the arm across and in for good bone allignment, elbows in tight to assist this principle.

momentum with the jab starts with the back foot weather square stance or not, shoulder launches the arm off of that momentum created by the back foot, you let the momentum carry your arm out to extention to avoid over flexing or 'forcing the punch', you simply turn the punch over as your arm unfolds, being careful to snap the jab out towards the end of the momentum your shoulder/feet have created and not too early as to avoid it hanging around out there (lazy jab) waiting for the return momentum generated by your shoulder at the end of the range of motion/full extention of the strike to hitch a lift with that momentum back in the straight line it came through. wait till last minute to snap so its straight back with the momentum, half of the fighters lose speed on the return of a shot, anyone can get them out there fast but its an art to return it as quick.

Obviously theres a lot more going on than just that with the right shoulder obviously having to support the movement to avoid antagonists resisting the jab costing speed and power, using the covering elbow for a leverage pump and to cover body in tight, and a hell of a lot more going on in terms of timing to ensure a jab thats hard to counter.

Lining up the back hand is a lot to do with where your back foot is compared to the desired target, obviously you can line it up more to straighten it out and shorten it, but ultimatley what makes or breaks a right hand is where the back foot is, if your back foot is too far away from the target your screwed, your body is going to absorb all the power of the strike before it can land.
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Old 07-03-2011, 04:49 PM   #6
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Default Re: Lining up the right hand

Also reading a fighter is a good thing when observing the bio-mechanics of a fighters style however you have to think the assumptions through properly, and have a very good understanding of basic bio-mechanics and be sure of them, you cant determine with a square stance what will be thrown after the jab, unless your assuming the fighter cant or doesnt return their shots which is daft. it could be a left hook or a left cut. if your not able to throw flowing combos from a stance there is somthing seriously wrong with your bio-mechanics and stance, period.

The key to analyzing a boxer is the feet, the feet can expose the effects going on during mobility rather than in strikes, observing the feet can make movement predictable and expose weaknesss to holes in defencive movement and weaknesses in speed.

Which ever way the feet are pointing in a boxing movement tells a story about what muscles they are using for the movement, how their bones are working for or against them, what muscles they are using or fighting against to stop or reverse the movement (are they the strongest/busiest, just been contracted?), what their joints will and will not allow them to do during or after the movement, where these joints or muscles may cost them in speed and power during the previous or next variable or movements, maintain variety at all times is key.

The rules to good bio-mechanics may seem simple but it gets very complicated with good fighters, whenever you move there is momentum that must be stopped, at this point it gets very complicated reading a fighter, if reversed movement is desired the trigger muscles are or can be already engaged in order to stop your momentum/movement and must relax and re contract to set off in a reverse path, this all costs time and ****s up rhythm. all of this needs to be and is accounted for in good styles by using good knee, feet and leg placement to favour the leverage thats to be gained from gravity for some movements when trigger muscles are engaged, and all this has already been accounted for in very good boxing styles/techniques or with good fighters, subtle things like this makes things very complicated when analysing a fighter even when bio-mechanics are well understood, its difficult to get whats going on just by seeing, its very dangerous stuff, assumptions. be careful.

Last edited by wayneflint; 07-03-2011 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 07-04-2011, 12:35 AM   #7
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Default Re: Lining up the right hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by wayneflint View Post
Lining up the back hand is a lot to do with where your back foot is compared to the desired target, obviously you can line it up more to straighten it out and shorten it, but ultimatley what makes or breaks a right hand is where the back foot is, if your back foot is too far away from the target your screwed, your body is going to absorb all the power of the strike before it can land.
This is a good point. Since my rear foot is a half step kicked out from an angled stance (think Duran stance), you definitly have to adjust your footwork and distance for a straight right. You need to be a bit more to your left, that's why I mentioned a diagonal step with the lead foot, since at the end of the step the rear foot would also move to the left leaving a better angle.
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Old 07-04-2011, 01:46 AM   #8
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Default Re: Lining up the right hand

i think its usually better if they are closer to your lead foot because then they are more in line with the direction your shoulders are turning and the direction your body moves into the punch, but it depends on you and how you stand as other people have said.

i got taught to put my all weight on my lead foot and then take my lead foot off the ground and pay attention to the angle i start to fall at, and line my right cross up and step in that direction when i throw it.
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Old 07-04-2011, 05:31 AM   #9
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Default Re: Lining up the right hand

There's some great info in this thread. Thanks for sharing!
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:34 AM   #10
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Default Re: Lining up the right hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by wayneflint View Post
Also reading a fighter is a good thing when observing the bio-mechanics of a fighters style however you have to think the assumptions through properly, and have a very good understanding of basic bio-mechanics and be sure of them . . . very complicated when analysing a fighter even when bio-mechanics are well understood, its difficult to get whats going on just by seeing, its very dangerous stuff, assumptions. be careful.
there's a fine line between your assumptions and my probabilities. the more i teach my fighters about probabilities of skills and strategies and what to watch for, the more complex work i can do in the corner (it drives me nuts when i hear trainers in the corner, "jab and move! keep your hands up!"). that comes from too much enabling in the gym and not enough empowering them to learn their own lessons in the ring from situational sparring.

and as far as understanding "basic biomechanics", i'm pretty confident i have a good grasp of some basic principles (which has been enough to debate and discuss theories with kinesiology majors who have studied SEMESTERS of biomechanics).

-stability-keeping center of gravity low and inside base-a wider base, lower center of gravity makes more solid base
-for strength use as many joints as possible
-for speed use the joints in order from largest to smallest
-more force generated with a larger impulse (range of motion)
-a body remains in constant velocity until another force is applied (which is the acceleration/deceleration of stop and go, switching that you often bring up)
-every action has a reaction (when i push against the ground i go in the opposite direction >>> up in the air; when i use my spine as a rotational axis i can pull my left shoulder back to make my right go forward; etc; etc)
-understanding the three kinds of levers and which joints are which
-the farther the lever extends away from the rotational axis the more work it takes to get the result (eg. a spinning figure skater is slow with arms out, but fast with arms crossed across chest; a boxer will shave off fractions of a second if he keeps his elbows close to his body as long as possible instead of looping haymakers)

-being able to picture "force diagrams" in my head in relation to a movement

and put that together with the stages of athletic movement.
-position
-set up
-wind up
-initial movement
-critical instant
-follow-through

and then years of experience applying it and creating drills to teach each element of each skill and how to apply that knowledge to strategies >>> allows me to cross over that fine line from assumption to probablity.

and thanks for the warning. i appreciate you looking out for me
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Old 07-05-2011, 05:45 AM   #11
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Default Re: Lining up the right hand

Its your fighters im worried about boxing science, i can tell you dont box competitivley so im not worried for you. what your telling them as fact is wrong. maybe you do have disscussions with academics, good for you. my coach works closely with sheffield university and has worked with academics for years. hes worked with men with diplomas left right and centre, worked through all the finer points of ecenomics and dynamics of his technique with some very accomplished accademics.

We can talk about what we've done all day but my point was clearly you have to think more into what your saying and the advice you give as fact which is another common error, be very careful as what you state as fact. its just opinion and im careful to state this whenever i give advice on sesetive subjects. be careful to state opinions rather than facts.

the probabilities your getting from a squared or side on stance are just so wrong its silly, the only thing this effects is the distance between right and left hand and their targets meaning some weapons must travel further than others, it doesnt effect bio-mechanics in terms of striking or combinations it seems you are projecting onto others, things perhaps you feel is a problem for yourself. like i said what can be more reliable to read is footwork and it tells you things about the fighters movement and weaknesses in mobility after certain movements, you cant say because you have a square or narrow stance you 'know' what combos the fighter can and cant throw because simply if you cant throw any combo from your stance then your a terrible boxer and should rethink whats going on and find a new coach, thats just rediculous and dangerous to assume such things.

I dont really care if you can think of force diagrams, i care if the advice your giving to fighters on the forums is safe and quality advice, which im affraid its not,
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Old 07-05-2011, 06:04 AM   #12
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Default Re: Lining up the right hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxinScienceUSA View Post
-stability-keeping center of gravity low and inside base-a wider base, lower center of gravity makes more solid base
-for strength use as many joints as possible
-for speed use the joints in order from largest to smallest
-more force generated with a larger impulse (range of motion)
-a body remains in constant velocity until another force is applied (which is the acceleration/deceleration of stop and go, switching that you often bring up)
-every action has a reaction (when i push against the ground i go in the opposite direction >>> up in the air; when i use my spine as a rotational axis i can pull my left shoulder back to make my right go forward; etc; etc)
-understanding the three kinds of levers and which joints are which
-the farther the lever extends away from the rotational axis the more work it takes to get the result (eg. a spinning figure skater is slow with arms out, but fast with arms crossed across chest; a boxer will shave off fractions of a second if he keeps his elbows close to his body as long as possible instead of looping haymakers)
Ok so youve got some of the basics of punching mechanics, and can regurgitate from a textbook, google, whatever. i can tell youve got a lot more work to do from the statements youve made in terms of stances and how to line up the right hand, its clear your've got the overall picture wrong in terms of just striking alone, nevermind movement. movement gets a hell of a lot more complicated than striking. when you get 7 or 8 moves deep, it gets complicated, there are tricks to avoid the many holes that fighters end up in (very subtle stuff, i love it), if you know these tricks you can analise a little where the fighter will be losing speed and variation/power in movement and in strikes (not the inability to throw shots alltogether lol) at some points in a fight, however this is just an assumption, only applies to a fighter that is 100% orthadox which is never going to happen, and dissregards talent, genetics, pshycodynamics of each fighter completely, its ridiculous you think you could make these assumptions and shows how immature you are. sorry for being harsh but its true.
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Old 07-05-2011, 06:18 AM   #13
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Default Re: Lining up the right hand

I just cant leave it alone lol. its ridiculouse, there are traps in thought alone that will slow and inhibit a fighters performance, movements, pshycodynamics as i mentioned before, posture and ability to recieve and send messages, theres so much involved your just not acknowledging its daft. your clearly a clever man and i like your approach to fighting, your doing a hell of a lot better than most coaches. but there's a lot it seems you havent thought about at all yet.
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:58 PM   #14
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Default Re: Lining up the right hand

sure there are traps everywhere, and definitely deeper a boxer gets into competition, but i don't think it helps to keep nagging about how people don't understand biomechanics the way you do. a huge element of coaching is being able to deliver the message. you sound frustrated with the lack of other people's knowledge ... and what are you doing to educate me? you're driving it down my throat that i don't know. what you know that i don't, is what makes you special and unique. the man with one eye, in the land of the blind can be king. all too often coaches and industry people want to make it more complex than it is.

what are the commonalities directly in front of me? i don't concern myself with "what ifs" and "what he might do". what are the facts? the only thing i have control over is my attitude, actions, and reactions. that's the way i live my life and that's what i teach my athletes: to live in the moment giving no concern to the past, using the future as motivation, and focus on the moment at hand. all i truly have is THIS moment. what am i going to do with it? the amount of "what if" possibilities after the bell rings are infinite. to score points i have to be close enough. when the bell rings the fact is, he is not close. he's either coming at me or he's going away. i'm either going at him or staying away. that alone gives me 4 combinations of possibilities which is a lot for someone who's new to process at that moment. that's why there are coaches to do the thinking and give instruction. so many people try to make boxing complex with extra elements like "styles" (swarming, slugging, etc). IN MY OPINION ... there are really only three styles; fight, flight, combination of fight/flight. it is that simple. everything else can be gradually taught after some experience has been had. KISS.

and to reference this original thread, the boxer asked a question, and i clearly stated "my opinion" with "the way i teach" (not FACTS). he then asked me to explain my thinking and i did with a more complex answer.

when it comes to the question of lining up the front or rear foot, it is not a one or the other, it's both. the "suggested" foot could be in line but if the other isn't then legs are crossed or too square or what ever the situation creating a bad base. your base gets to work for you so you can apply force, and remain stable when forces are applied to you. that's as simple as it gets.
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Old 07-06-2011, 02:57 AM   #15
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wayneflint has no idea what he is talking about. i feel genuinely sorry for the kids being trained by him.
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