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Old 12-05-2007, 07:42 AM   #1
Mendoza
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Default Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes.

What's a master boxer? A fighter who almost never going to lose on points in his prime! He is often fast handed, hard to hit, and smart. A Master boxer does not rely on a big punch or super size to win. Those guys are punchers, boxer pucnhers, or super heavyweights!

Power: Corbett 5, Tunney 6, Ali 6.5, Holmes 7

Tale of the Tape: ( height, weight, and reach ) Corbett 5, Tunney 5.5, Holmes 7, Ali 7

Hand and foot speed. Tunney 8.5, Holmes 8.5, Corbett 9.5, Ali 10

Boxing ability and versatility on OFFENSE ( Jab, hook, cross, body punch, uppercut, in-fight, out fight, combinations, feints ): Ali 7.5, Corbett 8, Tunney 8, Holmes 9

Boxing ability and versatility on DEFENSE ( avoid getting hit on the outside, avoid getting hit on the inside, …..block, slip, duck, clinching power and technique, parry, high guard / fundamentals, reflexes, covering up, head movement, avoid lapses, footwork to get out of the way ) Holmes 7.5, Ali 7.5, Tunney 8, Corbett, 8.5

Stamina: Ali 8, Holmes 9, Corbett 9.5, Tunney 10

Durability: Corbett 6, Tunney 8.5, Ali 9, Holmes 9

Heart and will to win: Corbett 9, Ali 9.5, Tunney 10, Holmes 10

Ring Generalship, Smarts, and Poise in the ring: Holmes, 9, Corbett 9, Ali 9, Tunney 10

Quality of opposition fought: Tunney 5.5, Corbett 7, Holmes 7.5, Ali 9.5

*What they added to the game of boxing. New punches, techniques, strageties, writen words... how to fight swarmers and south paws, philosophy, and video for the next generation to study. Holmes 6, Ali 8.5 Tunney 8.5, Corbett 10

Total score, and its close:

Corbett 86.5
Tunney 88.5
Holmes 89
Ali 92
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Old 12-05-2007, 07:57 AM   #2
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Boxing ability and versatility on DEFENSE ( avoid getting hit on the outside, avoid getting hit on the inside, …..block, slip, duck, clinching power and technique, parry, high guard / fundamentals, reflexes, covering up, head movement, avoid lapses, footwork to get out of the way ) Holmes 7.5, Ali 7.5, Tunney 8, Corbett, 8.5


This is why people tend to treat Ali as two seperate entities (fight of the century v Liston I) - I presume Ali scores so low here because you are treating him for "high guard/fundamentals"?


Quote:
Durability: Corbett 6, Tunney 8.5, Ali 9, Holmes 9
But why have you scored him a 9 in durability? In the modern division Ali is almost without peer as far as beatings absorbed is concerned, the two Frazer beatings were very serious and the Foreman beating is hugely, hugely underated. Ali is a 10 in this department, and you have to go back to pre WW1 before you can find someone with a better claim to one.

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Heart and will to win: Corbett 9, Ali 9.5, Tunney 10, Holmes 10
You really are losing me now. Holmes, 10 for heart, Ali 9.5? That is just plain wrong, Ali's pride got him to about round 8 in Manilla after that it's all heart, and then whatever comes after heart. Ali proves it over and over again, why is Holmes a 10?

Quote:
Ring Generalship, Smarts, and Poise in the ring: Holmes, 9, Corbett 9, Ali 9, Tunney 10
Unless you are talking about Ring Generalship in a different sense to the one I understand you are grossly underestimating him here again.


Wow. I had no idea I was such an Ali nuthugger. Or is it possible you have underestimated him here?
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Old 12-05-2007, 08:01 AM   #3
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes.

What's a master boxer? A fighter who almost never going to lose on points in his prime! He is often fast handed, hard to hit, and smart. A Master boxer does not rely on a big punch or super size to win. Those guys are punchers, boxer pucnhers, or super heavyweights!

Power: Corbett 5, Tunney 6, Ali 6.5, Holmes 7

Tale of the Tape: ( height, weight, and reach ) Corbett 5, Tunney 5.5, Holmes 7, Ali 7

Hand and foot speed. Tunney 8.5, Holmes 8.5, Corbett 9.5, Ali 10

Boxing ability and versatility on OFFENSE ( Jab, hook, cross, body punch, uppercut, in-fight, out fight, combinations, feints ): Ali 7.5, Corbett 8, Tunney 8, Holmes 9

Boxing ability and versatility on DEFENSE ( avoid getting hit on the outside, avoid getting hit on the inside, …..block, slip, duck, clinching power and technique, parry, high guard / fundamentals, reflexes, covering up, head movement, avoid lapses, footwork to get out of the way ) Holmes 7.5, Ali 7.5, Tunney 8, Corbett, 8.5

Stamina: Ali 8, Holmes 9, Corbett 9.5, Tunney 10

Durability: Corbett 6, Tunney 8.5, Ali 9, Holmes 9

Heart and will to win: Corbett 9, Ali 9.5, Tunney 10, Holmes 10

Ring Generalship, Smarts, and Poise in the ring: Holmes, 9, Corbett 9, Ali 9, Tunney 10

Quality of opposition fought: Tunney 5.5, Corbett 7, Holmes 7.5, Ali 9.5

*What they added to the game of boxing. New punches, techniques, strageties, writen words... how to fight swarmers and south paws, philosophy, and video for the next generation to study. Holmes 6, Ali 8.5 Tunney 8.5, Corbett 10

Total score, and its close:

Corbett 86.5
Tunney 88.5
Holmes 89
Ali 92
You should probably throw in Joe Walcott for good measure.
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Old 12-05-2007, 08:02 AM   #4
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

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Originally Posted by janitor
You should probably throw in Joe Walcott for good measure.
Master boxers rarely lose decsions.
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Old 12-05-2007, 08:03 AM   #5
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Master boxers rarely lose decsions.
It depents who to.
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Old 12-05-2007, 08:12 AM   #6
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

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McGrain

This is why people tend to treat Ali as two separate entities (fight of the century v Liston I) - I presume Ali scores so low here because you are treating him for "high guard/fundamentals"?
Defense is a lot of things. I think Ali had too many defense lapses, had mediocre defense vs in-fighters, a low guard, and some poor fundamentals. Ali got " nailed " too many times and hit with too many jabs to rate extremely high on defense.

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But why have you scored him a 9 in durability? In the modern division Ali is almost without peer as far as beatings absorbed is concerned, the two Frazer beatings were very serious and the Foreman beating is hugely, hugely underrated. Ali is a 10 in this department, and you have to go back to pre WW1 before you can find someone with a better claim to one.
I think Ali was a great actor and was hurt more than his opponents realized. And Ali was hurt quite a few times in his career. A 9 is a great score. It is rare. To put it into context, guys like Mercer would be a 10 in durability.

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You really are losing me now. Holmes, 10 for heart, Ali 9.5? That is just plain wrong, Ali's pride got him to about round 8 in Manilla after that it's all heart, and then whatever comes after heart. Ali proves it over and over again, why is Holmes a 10?
Heart is a lot of things. Ali coasted too often. When Ali needed a big final round vs Frazier, Norton, or Young did he really go all out in the fights he lost or might have lost? I think not. Remember, the young Ali wanted to quit vs Liston, but Dundee would not let him. Besides 9.5 is a great score. Now that I think about it, a 9 might have been better. Holmes in my opinion had to show more grit later in fights, fought better hurt, and had more dramatic moments when he needed them.

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Wow. I had no idea I was such an Ali nuthugger. Or is it possible you have underestimated him here?
Ali came out #1. I am not underestimating him here. I think it’s a case of judging the full picture. Where we disagree is on a .5 to 1 factor. This is not a big disagreement. Its a 5-10% disagreement on 1 to 10 scale. Make no mistake bout it. Ali was great, but he had his share of incompletes and flaws too.
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Old 12-05-2007, 08:15 AM   #7
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
It depents who to.
Corbett was 59-0-4 before losing to Fitz. Some were real fights, others were exhibitions.

Tunney officially only lost once in 80+ fights.

The prime Ali only lost twice, and they were vs hall of fame fighters on their better nights.

Holmes was 48-0 at one point.

As for Walcott, he lost more decision than all of these men combined; and some of them were to non-hall of fame type of opponents. Hence Walcott was not a master boxer even if he had the traits of being one.

My $.02 on the topic.
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Old 12-05-2007, 08:32 AM   #8
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

I don't think you can rate Tunney and Corbett a 10 and 9,5 on stamina and give Holmes and Ali only 9 and 8.

Ali and Holmes had to deal with much bigger opponents, which causes your energy to drain much faster. Ask anyone who's been in the ring.

Ali averaging 60 punches a round against an unstoppable Frazier in their first fight should guarantee at least a 9,5.

Corbett proved it against a middleweight, a few lightheavies, cruisers and lost to the only real heavyweight. Tunney never fought a good 200lbs+ fighter that made him require 15 round stamina like any of Holmes' or Ali's opponents did. Put Tunney or Corbett in the ring with the 1971 Frazier, he'll eat them up.
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Old 12-05-2007, 08:44 AM   #9
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

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ChrisPontius I don't think you can rate Tunney and Corbett a 10 and 9,5 on stamina and give Holmes and Ali only 9 and 8.
Do you think Ali or Holmes woudl be able to go full speed, in 20 rounds or more in the heat like Corbett did? No way. Tunney's ability to keep moving on flim in the later rounds, is more impressive than Ali's or Holmes. I have seen this.

Quote:
Ali and Holmes had to deal with much bigger opponents, which causes your energy to drain much faster. Ask anyone who's been in the ring.
Counter point, they only had to deal with them when they got tired, and could move at 100%. Roy Jones did not get tired agaisnt John Ruiz, because he did not clinch him.

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Ali averaging 60 punches a round against an unstoppable Frazier in their first fight should guarantee at least a 9,5.
Counterpoint, Ali clinched too much, which is away of resting, and rested on the ropes too often.

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Corbett proved it against a middleweight, a few lightheavies, cruisers and lost to the only real heavyweight. Tunney never fought a good 200lbs+ fighter that made him require 15 round stamina like any of Holmes' or Ali's opponents did. Put Tunney or Corbett in the ring with the 1971 Frazier, he'll eat them up.
I'd favor Frazier, but an upset is possible for Tunney. I agree that Ali and Holmes fought better ehavies, which is why I game them higher scores on quality of competition.
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Old 12-05-2007, 11:24 AM   #10
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

What about Johnson?
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Old 12-05-2007, 11:29 AM   #11
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Do you think Ali or Holmes woudl be able to go full speed, in 20 rounds or more in the heat like Corbett did? No way. Tunney's ability to keep moving on flim in the later rounds, is more impressive than Ali's or Holmes. I have seen this.
A bigger heavy makes you move more, makes you be more afraid of counters etc (which causes you to make more upper body movement). Anyone who has been in the ring will tell you do this. Corbett and Tunney simply did not have to deal with this.

Tunney never went 20 rounds either. We don't have full fights of him going 15 like we have of Ali and Holmes. Maybe he took his rests as well.

About Corbett, we went past 20 rounds twice according to Boxrec. One of them was against an old brawler who hadn't fought in 5 years.

The other fight was against Choinsky in 1889. Choinsky was a middleweight (see my earlier point about heavyweights) and i assume this was a bareknuckle fight where a round ends when one fighter is one the ground? Uncomparable to the grueling 15 Ali went with Frazier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Counter point, they only had to deal with them when they got tired, and could move at 100%. Roy Jones did not get tired agaisnt John Ruiz, because he did not clinch him.
True, that was a smart choice of referee on Jones' side. Ruiz should've used his physical advantages more and rough him up, pressure him, etc. He stopped doing that after a few rounds and any time they got close, the referee said Break!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Counterpoint, Ali clinched too much, which is away of resting, and rested on the ropes too often.
And you're telling me that Corbett, coming from a half-wrestle-half-boxing (called 'bareknuckle boxing') style did not wrestle and use that to rest? Or Tunney?
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Old 12-05-2007, 12:05 PM   #12
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

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ChrisPontius A bigger heavy makes you move more, makes you be more afraid of counters etc (which causes you to make more upper body movement). Anyone who has been in the ring will tell you do this. Corbett and Tunney simply did not have to deal with this.
Weight drains a fighter’s stamina. Ali and Holmes would have better stamina at 200 than 212-215. How did Ali and Frazier look with a few extra pounds on them? See my point? Tunney and Corbett did not have the extra bulk to carry; hence their stamina was a bit better. As I said before, a master boxer uses skills, and smarts. The bigger guys get tired when chasing fleet footed opponents who don't stop, unless they have a big time height and reach advantage to dictate the action.

Quote:
Tunney never went 20 rounds either. We don't have full fights of him going 15 like we have of Ali and Holmes. Maybe he took his rests as well.
Tunney never seemed tired on film...ever. I have footage of Tunney in the later rounds. He was fresh as a daisy. Corbett went 20+ rounds more than once with reports saying he was moving quickly well past round 15.

Quote:
About Corbett, we went past 20 rounds twice according to Boxrec. One of them was against an old brawler who hadn't fought in 5 years.
Box rec is wrong. Corbett went 20+ rounds with Sullivan, 60+ rounds with Jackson, 27 rounds with Choynski, and 23 rounds with Jeffries.

Quote:
True, that was a smart choice of referee on Jones' side. Ruiz should've used his physical advantages more and rough him up, pressure him, etc. He stopped doing that after a few rounds and any time they got close, the referee said Break!
I agree, but Ruiz being 220+ pounds did not slow Jones down one bit. And Ruiz punked out when Jones landed on him.

Quote:
And you're telling me that Corbett, coming from a half-wrestle-half-boxing (called 'bareknuckle boxing') style did not wrestle and use that to rest? Or Tunney?
When one wrestles in the clinches, it burns stamina far faster than boxing from a distance. Corbett wrestled when he had the advantage, but did not wrestle much vs stronger guys like Sullivan or Jeffries. Yes, I am sure Tunney was most active. More active in terms of moving around than Ali or Holmes was in a 15 round fight. You can think the old timers were not as good, but they clearly had better stamina, fought longer matches, had the fights in the out door heat of daylight, and did not have any gator aid or AC.
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Old 12-05-2007, 12:19 PM   #13
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

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Originally Posted by Maxmomer
What about Johnson?
Regarding my comment on a master boxer, he hardy ever losses on points. A master boxer does not get pointed, draw, or narrowly defeat vs lesser types as often as Johnson did. Johnson was a master clincher, not a master boxer.
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Old 12-05-2007, 12:42 PM   #14
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Regarding my comment on a master boxer, he hardy ever losses on points. A master boxer does not get pointed, draw, or narrowly defeat vs lesser types as often as Johnson did. Johnson was a master clincher, not a master boxer.


But fair enough. Johnson falls into the same "type" as Walcott who has also got a mention in this thread - smart, tricky clever types, very good defencively as well as a very excellent boxer.

I have no problem with your excluding Johnson (or Walcott) from your ****yisis on "master boxers" but nor do I accept that Holmes is a better fighter than Johnson because of that distinction.

Oh, and Holmes would have got "pointed, draw(n), or narrowly defeat(ed) vs less types" if he had fought to Johnson's schedule.
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Old 12-05-2007, 12:50 PM   #15
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Defense is a lot of things. I think Ali had too many defense lapses, had mediocre defense vs in-fighters, a low guard, and some poor fundamentals. Ali got " nailed " too many times and hit with too many jabs to rate extremely high on defense.
I disagree with you hotly about his defence being mediocre v infighters. Ali is great v infighters. Take Walcott's remark about Marcinao - that he is easy to hit, but hard to hit clean - and multiply it for Ali v infighters. In fact I think Ali was never KD'd whilst fighting on the inside.

Secondly, whilst he did have defencive lapses, as you say, he got away with those lapses many, many times on account of his superb reactions. More often than many others who have "better fundamentals" but lesser reactions. I rate him as a defencive master unbettered in the history of the division for these reasons, and horribly underestimated as a defencive infighter.



Quote:
I think Ali was a great actor and was hurt more than his opponents realized. And Ali was hurt quite a few times in his career. A 9 is a great score. It is rare. To put it into context, guys like Mercer would be a 10 in durability.
Never KO'd, ofcourse he was often hurt - he was in with some of the best HW's of all time, some of the most powerful too. He also often took opponents lightly and had to relly upon durability to help him through there. His second career was based primarily upon durability and defencive in fighting, the two areas I feel you have underestimated him the most.

I understand that a 9 is rare and so is a 10 - I am completely convinced that Ali is one and you should change your mark here, for what that is worth.



Quote:
Heart is a lot of things. Ali coasted too often. When Ali needed a big final round vs Frazier, Norton, or Young did he really go all out in the fights he lost or might have lost? I think not. Remember, the young Ali wanted to quit vs Liston, but Dundee would not let him. Besides 9.5 is a great score. Now that I think about it, a 9 might have been better. Holmes in my opinion had to show more grit later in fights, fought better hurt, and had more dramatic moments when he needed them.
Indeed, all these points are valid. Surely all are washed from the eyes in light of the performances v Frazier or Foreman or Holmes, even? Ali has suffered some of the greatest violence in boxing's modern history unflinchingly - in fact he dominated in spite of it. What has Holmes done to be rated above Ali in this most crucial of departments? What hellish beating did he suffer? What massive, seemingly concussive KO did he rise from to dominate his enemy? Mabye the best left hook in HW division.


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Ali was great, but he had his share of incompletes and flaws too.
I have never disputed this - I am not a big Ali fan, in fact I dislike the man.
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