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Old 12-05-2007, 11:51 AM   #16
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Master boxers rarely lose decsions.
I dont think that it is unreasonable to think that a master boxer could loose a decision to a swarmer or another slickster.

I think that is what Johnson and Walcotts points losses generally are.
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Old 12-05-2007, 11:51 AM   #17
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Regarding my comment on a master boxer, he hardy ever losses on points. A master boxer does not get pointed, draw, or narrowly defeat vs lesser types as often as Johnson did. Johnson was a master clincher, not a master boxer.
Fair enough, I don't think Johnson was a better boxer than any of the four you've picked. On another subject: 60 plus rounds? Damn, if that's not a testament to Corbett's stamina, I don't know what is. Wikipedia says it was declared a No Contest because Jackson and Corbett were both too tired to continue.
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Old 12-05-2007, 01:10 PM   #18
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

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Originally Posted by Maxmomer
Fair enough, I don't think Johnson was a better boxer than any of the four you've picked. On another subject: 60 plus rounds? Damn, if that's not a testament to Corbett's stamina, I don't know what is. Wikipedia says it was declared a No Contest because Jackson and Corbett were both too tired to continue.
I read the round by round report of Corbett vs Jackson, and its a dozy. Corbett won more rounds from what I can tell, but Jackson won some rounds by a larger margin. After round 30, things slowed down.
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Old 12-05-2007, 01:47 PM   #19
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes.

What's a master boxer? A fighter who almost never going to lose on points in his prime! He is often fast handed, hard to hit, and smart. A Master boxer does not rely on a big punch or super size to win. Those guys are punchers, boxer pucnhers, or super heavyweights!

Power: Corbett 5, Tunney 6, Ali 6.5, Holmes 7

Tale of the Tape: ( height, weight, and reach ) Corbett 5, Tunney 5.5, Holmes 7, Ali 7

Hand and foot speed. Tunney 8.5, Holmes 8.5, Corbett 9.5, Ali 10

Boxing ability and versatility on OFFENSE ( Jab, hook, cross, body punch, uppercut, in-fight, out fight, combinations, feints ): Ali 7.5, Corbett 8, Tunney 8, Holmes 9

Boxing ability and versatility on DEFENSE ( avoid getting hit on the outside, avoid getting hit on the inside, …..block, slip, duck, clinching power and technique, parry, high guard / fundamentals, reflexes, covering up, head movement, avoid lapses, footwork to get out of the way ) Holmes 7.5, Ali 7.5, Tunney 8, Corbett, 8.5

Stamina: Ali 8, Holmes 9, Corbett 9.5, Tunney 10

Durability: Corbett 6, Tunney 8.5, Ali 9, Holmes 9

Heart and will to win: Corbett 9, Ali 9.5, Tunney 10, Holmes 10

Ring Generalship, Smarts, and Poise in the ring: Holmes, 9, Corbett 9, Ali 9, Tunney 10

Quality of opposition fought: Tunney 5.5, Corbett 7, Holmes 7.5, Ali 9.5

*What they added to the game of boxing. New punches, techniques, strageties, writen words... how to fight swarmers and south paws, philosophy, and video for the next generation to study. Holmes 6, Ali 8.5 Tunney 8.5, Corbett 10

Total score, and its close:

Corbett 86.5
Tunney 88.5
Holmes 89
Ali 92
Take Ali out of the thread .ALI was NOT a master boxer.

He had great physical abilities but a relativelly poor defense and no body game.

Last edited by The Whaler; 10-21-2006 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 12-05-2007, 09:04 PM   #20
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes.

What's a master boxer? A fighter who almost never going to lose on points in his prime! He is often fast handed, hard to hit, and smart. A Master boxer does not rely on a big punch or super size to win. Those guys are punchers, boxer pucnhers, or super heavyweights!

Power: Corbett 5, Tunney 6, Ali 6.5, Holmes 7

Tale of the Tape: ( height, weight, and reach ) Corbett 5, Tunney 5.5, Holmes 7, Ali 7

Hand and foot speed. Tunney 8.5, Holmes 8.5, Corbett 9.5, Ali 10

Boxing ability and versatility on OFFENSE ( Jab, hook, cross, body punch, uppercut, in-fight, out fight, combinations, feints ): Ali 7.5, Corbett 8, Tunney 8, Holmes 9

Boxing ability and versatility on DEFENSE ( avoid getting hit on the outside, avoid getting hit on the inside, …..block, slip, duck, clinching power and technique, parry, high guard / fundamentals, reflexes, covering up, head movement, avoid lapses, footwork to get out of the way ) Holmes 7.5, Ali 7.5, Tunney 8, Corbett, 8.5

Stamina: Ali 8, Holmes 9, Corbett 9.5, Tunney 10

Durability: Corbett 6, Tunney 8.5, Ali 9, Holmes 9

Heart and will to win: Corbett 9, Ali 9.5, Tunney 10, Holmes 10

Ring Generalship, Smarts, and Poise in the ring: Holmes, 9, Corbett 9, Ali 9, Tunney 10

Quality of opposition fought: Tunney 5.5, Corbett 7, Holmes 7.5, Ali 9.5

*What they added to the game of boxing. New punches, techniques, strageties, writen words... how to fight swarmers and south paws, philosophy, and video for the next generation to study. Holmes 6, Ali 8.5 Tunney 8.5, Corbett 10

Total score, and its close:

Corbett 86.5
Tunney 88.5
Holmes 89
Ali 92
I agree 100%. I made a similar list on the main forum I go to, just it was based on more things and I did the top ATG heavyweights, not just the master boxers.

Last edited by Heavyrighthand; 10-22-2006 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 12-05-2007, 09:48 PM   #21
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

how could you not consider jersey joe a master boxer? if you have ever stepped foot in the ring and had some boxing knowledge, one would realize watching him on film that he was a master boxer ring technision with great science. Eddie futch said "walcott was one of the finest master boxing ring technicions in the history of boxing.

If you look at his record you will also see he has also outboxed and outpointed some very fine fighters(louis I, murray, charles, Bivins, Ray, marciano 13)

overall all you need to do his watch the film to realize how great a master boxer walcott was. He excelled ring science to a higher level with his artistry of slick moves/ upper body feints.

I think walcott looks much better than corbett for instance.
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Old 12-05-2007, 09:49 PM   #22
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

I also think Floyd Patterson and Ezzard Charles should be on this list over gene tunney. too me on film patterson was one of the finest most skilled boxers i have ever seen, and charles was an exceptional textbook fluid master boxer.
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Old 12-06-2007, 04:23 PM   #23
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

Jack Johnson should be on this list.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:32 AM   #24
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I also think Floyd Patterson and Ezzard Charles should be on this list over gene tunney. too me on film patterson was one of the finest most skilled boxers i have ever seen, and charles was an exceptional textbook fluid master boxer.
I suppose I could list them, but they would be in 5th and 6th place. Patterson and Charles were down a combined 48 times. Tunney was only down once. His footwork was better, he was much smarter, and he was more of the classic boxer style I was angling for. Patterson and Charles liked to brawl a bit.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:50 AM   #25
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

no walcott? tunney better footwork than walcott? is that a joke?
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:52 AM   #26
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

tunney was only down once, but he didnt face anywhere near the level of competition charles, patterson, walcott faced. tunney also never fought any men over 200lb like the above 3 did. tunney the majority of his career fought men much smaller than him. Tunney didnt fight any black fighters, he ducked jack sharkey and george godfrey. Tunney also failed to fight many of the top punchers of his era

Last edited by SuzieQ49; 12-07-2007 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:26 PM   #27
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
no walcott? tunney better footwork than walcott? is that a joke?

I did not say Tunney's footwork was any better or worse than Walcott's. I was comparing Tunney's footwork to Charles and Patterson.

I fancy Walcott’s stuff, but he just doesn’t fit my definition of a " master boxer " because he lost 18 times. By contrast Tunney officially only lost once.
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:48 PM   #28
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

tunney didnt fight any where near the level of competition at heavyweight that walcott fought. tunney didnt fight big men, tunney didnt fight black fighters. tunney did not fight on 24 hr notice against top contenders with no training and with hardly any food in his stomach in the last 2 days like walcott did. tunney didnt fight out of his prime like walcott did. tunney didnt fight big punchers(outside of old jack).
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:50 PM   #29
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

On film, it appears Floyd Patterson and ezzard charles both looked like the better tutored and skilled boxers than gene tunney. for instance, tunney didnt even know how to hold a high guard, something that you learn your first day in the gym. tunney threw arm punches, something they teach you in the gym not to do.


Tunney had predictable unpolished footwork. charles at his peak danced and glided around like a polished dancer, with great rythm and unpredictablity in his footwork. i give charles the edge here.
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:12 PM   #30
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Default Re: Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
for instance, tunney didnt even know how to hold a high guard, something that you learn your first day in the gym.
Not in those days.

Tunney was revolutionary skilled in that he did things that most boxers only learnt from the 30's. If you look at a guy like Dempsey, who was still modern for that time, you'd think in the 1920's they had their testicles in their knees, the way he keeps his hands there. Product of the transition of bareknuckle boxing to gloved boxing. From the early 30's, gloved boxing was modern.
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