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Old 12-06-2007, 10:13 AM   #16
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
I agree, we've done that, one or two things specific to this point though - first, the Liston-Ali fight is one of the only fights where there was serious suspicion at the time which has hugely diminished over time. This is because Ali's star rose so much higher than where it rode for this fight. From weird dancer to invincible, in fact. As Ali comes to seem more and more invincible, that result seemed more and more concievable. But one, obviously, does not follow behind the other. It is perfectly plausible for that fight to have been fixed AND for Ali to have been good enough to win it.
You've gotten me interested again. I didn't know that after the first fight there was talk of a fix but later it was seen as legit, as you say. I would be interested to hear about this, perhaps newpaper articles after the first fight saying it was a fix? Make a new thread if you like.



Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
I know this is hard to swallow, but it will be YEARS before they get to us if they ever manage to invent one. Assuming they decide to lose it they will want to think about JFK, Ghandi and even Jesus before they get anywhere near pairing Ali-Louis (then we still have to have the argument about which versions of the men to match and deal with the fault out from what will essentially be two kidnapps). What a pisser.
Yeah, asif finding out about jesus and the JFK assassination are as important as seeing Lewis and Liston taking it on. Ignorant people sometimes.
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:37 AM   #17
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
You've gotten me interested again. I didn't know that after the first fight there was talk of a fix but later it was seen as legit, as you say. I would be interested to hear about this, perhaps newpaper articles after the first fight saying it was a fix? Make a new thread if you like.
Yeah, there was talk of witheld purses the works. I might get to it.




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Yeah, asif finding out about jesus and the JFK assassination are as important as seeing Lewis and Liston taking it on. Ignorant people sometimes.
That's just the way these people are. Can't be a politician without having your priorities all screwed up.
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Old 12-06-2007, 12:50 PM   #18
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

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Interesting that no on mention yet is made of Liston's heart. It seems Liston gets a free pass for quitting blatantly against a light hitting opponent right after his career best win.
Liston was very rusty, overweight and far past his prime against ali.


Quote:
Yes, Liston fought and finished with a broken jaw against Marshall.
Who, in case you forgot, was a journeyman that was barely over the lightheavyweight limit but he beat that big bear.
He was actually a ranked lightheavyweight contender, not a journeyman. This was also sonny listons FIFTH pro fight, and liston was also thrown in agaisnt talented heavyweight contender johnny summerlin and twice outboxed him. not to mention liston battered and butchered marshall twice in rematches. name me a heavyweight champion who fought tougher competition in their first 10 bouts??


Quote:
Why does Liston get a free pass on this department? Because he has 15" fists? Fact is that Lewis has never been intimidated and Liston would be no different. Liston was intimated like hell by Ali and folded like a cheap suit once, perhaps twice. Liston is the one without self-confidence here. He has been controlled his entire life. Just hear him speak, he has that shy-stutter despite that he can beat the shit out of 99% of the people. You cannot ignore these factors. Lewis has proven his heart beyond any doubt in the Mercer, Bruno and Klitschko fights. Liston's is a question mark.
once again liston was far past his prime, rusty, overweight against ali.

Liston more than proved his heart against williams, getting his nose broken and being pounded badly in round 1, but he didnt get intimidated and came back to butcher williams in round 3.

fighting 8 rounds with a broken jaw is ALOT OF HEART if you ask me, you know how painful a broken jaw is?

Mercer fight? the fight where a 6'1 "poor mans" liston outboxed him for 10 rounds and was robbed? the one where lennox looked beat mentally as much as physically?


Lennox never got up off the canvas to win a fight, something liston did and this is a fact that you can't spin around.


"If I had any weakness, anywhere in my body, heart, head....it would have showed in the beating I took in that first round. But I knew deep down I had him. The big cat had to keep up that punishment for 10 straight rounds and I knew he didnt have it in him."- Liston on the first cleveland williams fight, as you see liston had alot of heart.



Quote:
I'll take Lewis by knockout or decision. He has a much bigger actual reach (forget that wingspan bullshit, 6'3 80" Williams clearly had a much bigger reach than Liston) and more importantly, much faster hands. After the fight, people would comment on how remarkably small Liston looked when he got in the ring with a big heavyweight for a change. The mythical picture of a 6'8 250lbs bear was in fact 6'0 200-212lbs.
Umm liston had a 84" reach just as long as lennox's. Watch the film, liston had ridiculous long arms. Liston was only 6'1 212lb, but he was so incredibly strong for his size, not to mention his physical measurements far exceeeded his body weight. He was as strong a heavyweight as any there ever was. You see him do those neck bridges in training standing upright on his head for hours?

williams had about an 82" reach, but listons arms were clearly longer. Just in case you dont know, williams was a physical speciman if i have ever seen, more so than any heavyweight from this era.

your forgetting that liston TWICE demolished williams in 2 and 3 rounds.





Quote:
I don't like Liston's punching compared to Lewis. Lewis' was much more smooth. Watch for instance Liston finishing Williams in their second fight. It seems he pushes those right hands out, slowly telegraphed and one by one. Compare that to a finish like Lewis-Botha and you'll see the difference.
lewis-botha? LOL what a joke of a fight. i laughed the whole fight, botha looked like a philsbury doughboy. Now liston vs westphal finish where westphal dropped after a right hand looking like he been shot, now that was a picture perfect finish. Quick straight fast damaging right was all liston needed, a much better finish than lewis-botha.

Liston did not push his right, HE CLUBBED WITH IT. He turned it into a damaging club that he had a lot of force behind it, also listons left hook was as perfect a left hook as we have ever seen on film. he could throw it short,long, fast with great technique and people dropped like they been shot when it hit them.

Liston teleograph? I certainly didnt see that! I saw a damaging clubbing technical puncher with faster hands at his peak than lennox had.

Quote:
Liston has a grand total of 2 fights against punchers. Williams' career only KO is Terrel and a long string of Texas bums. Satterfield KO'd him also. Lewis faced a ton of punchers, Ruddock, Tua, Klitschko, Tyson (still good for a few rounds), Bruno, Morrison, Grant, Mercer, Briggs, Golota, Tucker, Mason, Rahman, McCall.
Lewis is the more proven man here.
old tucker, mason, mercer, golota big punchers?


Dont ever question Cleveland Williams power. He was one of the most ferocious hard hitting heavyweights in history. I have tons of film on him, the man could hit like a truck. The reason he didnt take on a lot of contenders was because he was ducked by all of them. "no one wants to fight cleveland williams"- sonny liston in 1963. Also calling guys like alex miteff, sonny banks, alonzo johnson, billy daniels, young jack johnson, wayne bethea "texas bums" is not very intelligent.


Cleveland williams was only 20 years old and took the fight on less than 24 hour notice against a seasoned contender in bob satterfield in 1954. its quite safe to say williams was extremely green when tangeled with bob, kind of like ali was green when he was floored by sonny banks. Im 20 1/2 years old, and I am certainly not anywhere near my physical peak yet. not until at least 25 years old. Willaims was only 200lb when he fought satterfield, he filled out to a muscular 215lb frame by the time he was 25 years old.

Finally I might add, Dont forget lennox was embarrasingly knocked out by one punch from two mediocre heavyweights. This never happened to liston. Liston faced tougher competition and fought younger prime contenders whom he dominated with ease, while lennox struggled with guys his whole career(outboxed by bruno, robbed against mercer, struggled badly vs old holyfield, outboxed by clumsly vitali, knocked out twice by two mediocre heavyweights in his prime)

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Liston has a grand total of 2 fights against punchers
This is untrue. ever heard of Nino Valdez? Mike Dejohn? both big punchers.

Valdez was 34, but he still had his tremendous power and physical presense at 6'4 211lb. Just a year earlier valdez knocked out 3 rated heavyweight contenders(harold carter, pat mcmurty, mike dejohn) and would knock out brian london a year after losing to liston. I dont know if you have seen valdez on film, but not only was he a big heavyweight, the man could hit like a truck. I have film of valdez vs jackson and he was a terrific puncher.


"Being hit by Liston," Valdez observed, "was like being kicked by a mule. By the time I fought Liston I was over the hill. I hit him a couple of solid shots and he did not buckle. Sonny was the strongest man I ever fought and he was very tough. When I fought him I still could hit very hard but my reflexes were not there anymore."- Nino Valdez


As you see Valdez still was a terrfic puncher when he fought liston, and liston took his best punches



Mike Dejohn though no world beater, was a 6'3 respectible contender and a very hard puncher. liston took his best punches. granite chinned george chuvalo called mike dejohn "the hardest hitter i ever faced".






Quote:
Marciano gets a lot of criticism for beating small heavyweights, but how often did Liston face a 210+lbs heavyweight? One is Williams who was unranked. The other is Ali who beat the crap out of him twice.
Liston tangled with about 15 men over 210lb during his career and dominated them all outside of ali. 3 of them being contenders williams, valdez, dejohn. hell you could even throw giants wepner, G zech in their for they were ranked in the top 10 righ around the time they fought sonny.


Quote:

To summarize:
Power: Even
I give sonny the edge here.
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Old 12-06-2007, 12:50 PM   #19
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

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Boxing ability: I never saw Liston hook off the jab like Lewis did. I never saw Liston fight off the backfoot for the full fight like Lewis did. I never saw Liston put together a 4-punch combination like Lewis did against Holyfield, Mercer, etc. Edge: Lewis.
I saw alot less flaws in listons boxing skills/technique than i did in lennox who had many flaws which explains why guys like "poor mans sonny liston" ray mercer and frank bruno outboxed him in his prime. liston outboxed master boxer eddie machen easily over 12 rounds. Liston was a lot more polished an controlled and powerful with his jab than lennox. Liston didnt have bad habits like dropped his left after jabbing like lennox did. Liston was like joe louis, he stalked his prey, slowly and surely. He would sitback at times on his backfoot and jab, but usually he was stalking his prey. He was very calm cool collective in his style. I saw liston put together 4-5 punch fight ending combinations against cleveland williams, floyd patterson, roy harris. Watch his peak fight vs wayne bethea, I see liston connect on bethea with a left right left right left hook 5 punch combination that backs him into the ropes before he floors him. Not to mention some of listons best preformances arnt on film(folley, dejohn) so we dont have full film to judge like we do with lennox. According to papers, liston finished folley with a vicious 4 punch combination.

I might add Lennox nearly lost to a old holyfield(who resembled nothing like a peak sonny liston), and he got outboxed by a "poor mans liston" in ray mercer who was only 6'1(like liston) with a good jab(like liston).




Quote:
Handspeed: Lewis, easily. Despite being 35lbs and 5 inches bigger naturally. Just watch the film and see for yourself.
Disagree, I think liston at his absolute best(bethea fight) had better faster handspeed than lennox. Liston was very trim 204lb and looked fast.

Quote:
Chin: I think this one is close. Liston didn't get KO'd the way Lewis got, but Liston only faced one good puncher twice. If you pick two random punchers off Lewis' resume, chances are that Lewis comes out the same way Liston does. Lewis is a lot more proven in that he took many punches from a lot of different kind of big punchers with no trouble, and it's been noted before that Lewis was ready to continue against McCall. I don't really trust that referee knowing that Don King had bet $450.000 for McCall to win. Liston got knocked out cold when he was nearly 40, Lewis when he was 35. Notice though, that Martin was the first noteworthy puncher that Liston faced since he was 32 while Lewis fought McCall, Akinwande, Golota, Briggs, Grant, Tua, Rahman 2x, Tyson and Klitschko as punchers when he was older than 32. But okay, for now i will give Liston the edge.

This easily goes to liston. He took williams, valdez, dejohns best punches without blinking. lennox was knocked out by one punch twice in his prime by medioocre heavyweights.


Quote:
Footwork: Lewis. Lewis moves around the ring better, faster and can figth off the backfoot, something Liston never showed. Lewis is more versatile, faster and doesn't always chase you in a straight line like Liston did.
Liston gets the edge here. He had very suttle fluid "joe louis stalk you prey like" footwork. Liston was very balanced and moved in and out very calm and collectivley. never made a mistake. I think liston was more versatile.


Quote:
More proven against big heavyweights: Lewis.

More proven against big punchers: Lewis.
lewis was more proven against big heavyweights, but then again against smaller heavyweights lennox struggled. he struggled incredibly with 36 year old ray mercer and 38 year old evander holyfield, all men around the same size as liston.

I think liston was more proven vs big punchers, he proved he could take a punch. lennox did not.


Quote:
Stamina: Liston went 12 only once against Machen, but to be fair, he showed no problem there. Lewis went 12 several times. Against Tua he kept moving all the time. Lewis could have very high punch outputs despite his size. He averaged 55 punches a round against Holyfield (landed 57%). Edge: Lewis.
I would say even

Quote:
Size: Lewis has 35 lbs in natural weight, 5 inches in height and despite their wingspans both being 84", i can guarantee you that Lewis has the longer reach. He is 5 inches taller and his hands look much longer, compared to Liston's hands who were less long than Williams'. Edge: Lewis.

size isnt a big factor, lennox struggled with 6'1 215lb men(38 year old holyfield, 36 year old mercer). Besides Liston had the same reach as lennox both 84" which every way you try to spin it. look at the film, whitehurst fight liston looks like his arms could reach halfway across the ring thats how long his arms look. he was a freak of nature, they do come around a couple times every 50 years(liston was one of em). Liston has same reach as lennox. Williams reach was 82" listons was 84". deal with it, the tale of the tape doesnt lie.

Quote:
Experience: Lewis beat much more top ranked contenders than Liston. Liston has something like 7, Lewis something like 20. That's about three times more.
Liston IMO fought just as good if not better quality contenders than lennox did but the difference here is liston dominated them while lennox struggled/lost with many of them. Liston dominated themm all easily with no controversy, lennox had some controversial close matches and was knocked out twice.


Quote:
Heart: No explanation needed here i suppose. Edge: Lewis.
I would say even

Quote:
I think Lewis would using footwork, timing, speed and reach to beat Liston's jab, and come over the top with a right hand now and then, which is easy when you're inches taller. Of course it could also go the other way. But i'll take my chances with Lewis in this one.
I already said my peice, liston by early-mid round Kayo. See the ray mercer fight to realize how badly lennox would struggle in thise one.
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Old 12-06-2007, 02:09 PM   #20
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

Pointing out of Lewis's shortcomings in his worst performances (ie 2 KO's verses 40+ no getting KO'd) and only highlighting Listons best performances isn't an analysis, it's cheerleading. Nor do I think Mercer was robbed. Close fight yes, robbery no. Having said that, I do agree that the Ali fights shouldn't be used to gauge a prime Liston performance, he was well past his best by then, but neither have I seen anything to convince me that Liston has faster handspeed than Lewis.

It's a pretty even match up if you ask me. But even though I consider Lewis top 5 h2h, Liston is one of the few who I think has a reasonable chance of beating him. But having said that I see it as about a 50/50 in terms of odds. Whoever establishes their jab would have a huge edge. If Lewis does it allows him to stay on the outside, and outbox the bear if he wishes.
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Old 12-06-2007, 02:12 PM   #21
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

i have the fight on Tivo, i had mercer winning at least 6 out of the 10 rounds.
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Old 12-06-2007, 02:14 PM   #22
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
i have the fight on Tivo, i had mercer winning at least 6 out of the 10 rounds.
So what I have the fight on DVD and I have Lewis winning a close decision. I'll watch it again over the next couple of days and give you a round by round breakdown if you like. And even if you are correct, a one round swing is hardly a robbery.
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Old 12-06-2007, 02:19 PM   #23
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
i have the fight on Tivo, i had mercer winning at least 6 out of the 10 rounds.
So did I, and in fact I remember seeing that fight live back in 95'. But I think Vanboxingfan's point is that we can't draw conclusions based on the worst performances of one fighter while focussing on the best of another. This rule applies no matter who you're comparing. Too many people read into the McCall and Rahman fights in my opinion as well. Still, I agree that Sonny would have a chance of beating Lewis, but I'm not sure if I'd favor him.

Not that its relevant, but Mercer had one of the hardest chins of all time, while Sonny had his jaw broken once. Of course Sonny only had a few fights behind him, while facing a veteran, but let's just say that chin was not invincible. He could have been really hurt by a puncher like Lewis. Nevertheless its a good mathcup.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:11 PM   #24
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I like Liston by early Kayo. Sonny Liston reminds me of randy moss, a freak of nature for his size. incredible talent to go along with his freakish physical tools(15" fist, 84" reach).

I think Liston was the better boxer than lennox and i can see him controlling lennox with the jab like bruno did, and unlike foreman liston didnt bull rush in. liston was methodical, smart he stayed back boxed utilized his long jab...liston wouldnt be caught red handed swining widly coming in, he would slowly and surely make lennox make a mistake and he would attack lennoxs body hard. Liston suttley wait for lennox to drop that left low like he always does after a jab, and liston would come right over the top with that right hand to stun lennox then finish him off with a barrage of lethal hooks. I dont see liston getting caught in the trenches with lennox very often and liston is too strong to be manhandled in the clinches. good styles for sonny.

Lennox has to box him early but let Sonny feel his power, barring a lucky shot by Sonny, Lennox keeps Sonny at the end of his punches until the 7th round where he puts Sonny down for the count
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:28 PM   #25
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

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Too many people read into the McCall and Rahman fights in my opinion as well.
I dont think so, both are 1 punch knockout losses at/near his prime to two ordinary heavyweights. these losses are detrimental to his legacy. most other great heavyweight champs hadvnt suffered one punch knockout losses in there prime twice. for these 2 losses i dont rate lennox in my top 10.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:47 PM   #26
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I dont think so, both are 1 punch knockout losses at/near his prime to two ordinary heavyweights. these losses are detrimental to his legacy. most other great heavyweight champs hadvnt suffered one punch knockout losses in there prime twice. for these 2 losses i dont rate lennox in my top 10.
If you think the losses hurt Lewis in a legacy sense you are right. If you think they are all consuming reasons concerning Liston's chances v Lewis, you are wrong.
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Old 12-06-2007, 04:57 PM   #27
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

Lewis UD.

Don't feel like explaining my pick, right now.
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Old 12-06-2007, 05:15 PM   #28
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

On this whole size and reach issue; yes Liston was a genetic freak - the longest arms I've ever seen.

Weirdly, a guy who reminds me a little of Liston physically is Hasim Rahman. Rahman's also has a condor-like wingspan which he's used to outbox opponents taller than himself - say what you want about Rahman, but I think he has an almost perfect physique for a heaveyweight boxer ('cept for the chin of course )
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Old 12-06-2007, 05:58 PM   #29
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by McGrain
If you think the losses hurt Lewis in a legacy sense you are right. If you think they are all consuming reasons concerning Liston's chances v Lewis, you are wrong.
Bingo. Besides regarding Rahman, which Lewis shows up? The one who fought him the first time, or the one who fought him in the rematch?

Personally I think it's the latter, obviously some think (you pretty much gotta be anti-Lewis to think this) the former.
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Old 12-06-2007, 06:04 PM   #30
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

SuzieQ, what you do is wave away all negative aspects of Listons career and highlight the positives, then talk all about the bad things that happened to Lewis and ignore the good things. That's not an objective discussion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Liston was very rusty, overweight and far past his prime against ali.
He was just as rusty and a grand total of 3 pounds heavier than when he stopped Patterson in one round in their rematch. How is coming off your career most impressive performance & win "far past your prime"?

And even so, does that mean we should just ignore it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
He was actually a ranked lightheavyweight contender, not a journeyman. This was also sonny listons FIFTH pro fight, and liston was also thrown in agaisnt talented heavyweight contender johnny summerlin and twice outboxed him. not to mention liston battered and butchered marshall twice in rematches. name me a heavyweight champion who fought tougher competition in their first 10 bouts??
Ring magazine didn't have him ranked and i'm not surprised considering the mediocrity of his record.

I know that you wish it to be true, but Summerlin wasn't a ranked contender when him and Liston fought, either. He would be ranked later briefly, but that's not how it works.

Marshall still knocked Liston down in the rematch, by the way.

Liston's early opposition was impressive (considering Liston's experience, that is), no doubt there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
once again liston was far past his prime, rusty, overweight against ali.

Liston more than proved his heart against williams, getting his nose broken and being pounded badly in round 1, but he didnt get intimidated and came back to butcher williams in round 3.

fighting 8 rounds with a broken jaw is ALOT OF HEART if you ask me, you know how painful a broken jaw is?
Interesting that Liston's blatant quitting is irrelevant because he was "far past his prime" and a grand total of 3 pounds overweight, while whatever lack of motivation Lewis had for the Rahman bout doesn't matter, nevermind that he was 3 years old than Liston was against Ali?

And what is your evidence that Liston's jaw was broken in the 1st? According to Boxrec it was probably broken in the 4th.

Liston overcoming Williams pounding him is impressive, but come on Suzie. You have to admit that Lewis is not only far more proven in this area but never quit like Liston did, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ
Mercer fight? the fight where a 6'1 "poor mans" liston outboxed him for 10 rounds and was robbed? the one where lennox looked beat mentally as much as physically?
That "outboxed him for 10 rounds" only happened in your mind, sorry. Most people agree that Lewis won the fight by a small margin. And this poor man's Liston takes a better shot than him which was very relevant in this fight. And how did Lewis look beat mentally? He fought well during the last three rounds (when he should've been beaten mentally) and he didn't keep sitting on his stool like Liston did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Lennox never got up off the canvas to win a fight, something liston did and this is a fact that you can't spin around.
Yeah, he got off the canvas to beat an undersized journeyman, very impressive.

I can guarantee that if Lewis got knocked down by Michael Simuwelu in his 10th pro fight but still knocked him out and avenged it, you would be talking all this about how Lewis was knocked down by a journeyman etc, not about "Lewis got up to win".

What is the relevance there anyway?
Jeffries never got up to win either. Does anyone doubt Jeffries' heart? All it means is that Lewis didn't get knocked down by inferior fighters like Liston did in this case. Lewis has shown on various occasions to come back from behind and never quit, that is enough for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ
Umm liston had a 84" reach just as long as lennox's. Watch the film, liston had ridiculous long arms. Liston was only 6'1 212lb, but he was so incredibly strong for his size, not to mention his physical measurements far exceeeded his body weight. He was as strong a heavyweight as any there ever was. You see him do those neck bridges in training standing upright on his head for hours?

williams had about an 82" reach, but listons arms were clearly longer. Just in case you dont know, williams was a physical speciman if i have ever seen, more so than any heavyweight from this era.

your forgetting that liston TWICE demolished williams in 2 and 3 rounds.
Williams didn't have "about an 82" reach", he had an 80 inch reach.
And as you can see on these pictures, Liston does NOT have the longer arms:

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Liston in the white trunks, Williams in the black trunks. As you can see, Williams has no trouble reaching the "84 inch reach" Liston despite that his arm isn't even fully extended whereas Liston is, because he has to punch upward (and would have to even further against Lewis).

And no, i won't forget that he destroyed Williams twice, because it's just about the only point which you keep brining up. Did i mention that Williams wasn't a top 10 ranked contender at that point ?






Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
lewis-botha? LOL what a joke of a fight. i laughed the whole fight, botha looked like a philsbury doughboy. Now liston vs westphal finish where westphal dropped after a right hand looking like he been shot, now that was a picture perfect finish. Quick straight fast damaging right was all liston needed, a much better finish than lewis-botha.
Yeah, Botha look like a philsbury doughboy and you were laughing all the time. Of course, when that monster of a journeyman, the 5'7 195lbs Albert Westphal got into the picture your jaw dropped from being impressed. Nice objective analysis again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Liston did not push his right, HE CLUBBED WITH IT. He turned it into a damaging club that he had a lot of force behind it, also listons left hook was as perfect a left hook as we have ever seen on film. he could throw it short,long, fast with great technique and people dropped like they been shot when it hit them.


Liston teleograph? I certainly didnt see that! I saw a damaging clubbing technical puncher with faster hands at his peak than lennox had.
Liston faster hands that Lewis? I suggest you re-watch the film in an objective way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
old tucker, mason, mercer, golota big punchers?
I see you left out Tua, Klitschko, Rahman, Briggs, Bruno and Tyson.

p.s. Golota was more athletically talented than anyone Liston ever faced excluding Ali. The way he beat Bowe on the inside, outside, everywhere from pillar to post is more impressive than anyone Williams ever did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Dont ever question Cleveland Williams power. He was one of the most ferocious hard hitting heavyweights in history. I have tons of film on him, the man could hit like a truck. The reason he didnt take on a lot of contenders was because he was ducked by all of them. "no one wants to fight cleveland williams"- sonny liston in 1963. Also calling guys like alex miteff, sonny banks, alonzo johnson, billy daniels, young jack johnson, wayne bethea "texas bums" is not very intelligent.
Yeah, okay. Too bad that despite his enormous power, he has a grand total of zero knockouts against a contender. In case you're brining up Terrel now, he wasn't ranked when Williams knocked him out (he was ranked after he beat Williams in a rematch, though).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Cleveland williams was only 20 years old and took the fight on less than 24 hour notice against a seasoned contender in bob satterfield in 1954. its quite safe to say williams was extremely green when tangeled with bob, kind of like ali was green when he was floored by sonny banks. Im 20 1/2 years old, and I am certainly not anywhere near my physical peak yet. not until at least 25 years old. Willaims was only 200lb when he fought satterfield, he filled out to a muscular 215lb frame by the time he was 25 years old.
Fact is that his record against contenders is pretty bad.
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