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Old 12-06-2007, 06:05 PM   #31
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Finally I might add, Dont forget lennox was embarrasingly knocked out by one punch from two mediocre heavyweights. This never happened to liston. Liston faced tougher competition and fought younger prime contenders whom he dominated with ease, while lennox struggled with guys his whole career(outboxed by bruno, robbed against mercer, struggled badly vs old holyfield, outboxed by clumsly vitali, knocked out twice by two mediocre heavyweights in his prime)
Liston faced better competition?
Okay - let's invest. I will list the names that Lewis beat, for every one of them you provide a name that Liston beat that is at least as good or better, alright? If you can list names in addition to that, you receive extra points. Here we go.

Lewis beat:
Weaver
Ruddock (ranked)
Mason
Tucker (ranked)
Bruno (ranked)
McCall (ranked)
Mercer (ranked)
Morrison (ranked)
Akinwande (ranked)
Golota (ranked)
Grant (ranked)
Tua (ranked)
Briggs (ranked)
Holyfield I (ranked)
Holyfield II (ranked)
Botha
Rahman (ranked)
Tyson (ranked)
V. Klitschko (ranked)

Looking forward to what names you will come up with to show Liston faced tougher opposition. Include if they were ranked in the Ring top10 when they and Liston fought, as i did with Lewis.




Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
This is untrue. ever heard of Nino Valdez? Mike Dejohn? both big punchers.

Valdez was 34, but he still had his tremendous power and physical presense at 6'4 211lb. Just a year earlier valdez knocked out 3 rated heavyweight contenders(harold carter, pat mcmurty, mike dejohn) and would knock out brian london a year after losing to liston. I dont know if you have seen valdez on film, but not only was he a big heavyweight, the man could hit like a truck. I have film of valdez vs jackson and he was a terrific puncher.
Valdes stood with one foot in retirement. He retired 4 months after the Liston fight, doesn't that tell you something?
DeJohn was a good puncher although his KO record is little over 50%.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
"Being hit by Liston," Valdez observed, "was like being kicked by a mule. By the time I fought Liston I was over the hill. I hit him a couple of solid shots and he did not buckle. Sonny was the strongest man I ever fought and he was very tough. When I fought him I still could hit very hard but my reflexes were not there anymore."- Nino Valdez

As you see Valdez still was a terrfic puncher when he fought liston, and liston took his best punches
I don't see it, sorry. Valdes was way past his prime and practically retired. A quote where he says he isn't doesn't prove shit. Actions speak louder than words. The action? He retired 4 months later.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Mike Dejohn though no world beater, was a 6'3 respectible contender and a very hard puncher. liston took his best punches. granite chinned george chuvalo called mike dejohn "the hardest hitter i ever faced".
Okay, so if i gift you Valdes, then you have 4 punchers on his record, one of which with a 50% ko ratio. How does that compare to the something like 12 punchers on Lewis' record?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Liston tangled with about 15 men over 210lb during his career and dominated them all outside of ali. 3 of them being contenders williams, valdez, dejohn. hell you could even throw giants wepner, G zech in their for they were ranked in the top 10 righ around the time they fought sonny.
Wepner wasn't ranked. Look up the rankings. And why should he be? Getting knocked out by a guy with 4 pro fights in your 30th isn't impressive, neither is losing to "King" Jose Roman.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I give sonny the edge here.
I disagree Liston having better power, but since this is very subjective, let's go on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I saw alot less flaws in listons boxing skills/technique than i did in lennox who had many flaws which explains why guys like "poor mans sonny liston" ray mercer and frank bruno outboxed him in his prime. liston outboxed master boxer eddie machen easily over 12 rounds. Liston was a lot more polished an controlled and powerful with his jab than lennox. Liston didnt have bad habits like dropped his left after jabbing like lennox did. Liston was like joe louis, he stalked his prey, slowly and surely. He would sitback at times on his backfoot and jab, but usually he was stalking his prey. He was very calm cool collective in his style. I saw liston put together 4-5 punch fight ending combinations against cleveland williams, floyd patterson, roy harris. Watch his peak fight vs wayne bethea, I see liston connect on bethea with a left right left right left hook 5 punch combination that backs him into the ropes before he floors him. Not to mention some of listons best preformances arnt on film(folley, dejohn) so we dont have full film to judge like we do with lennox. According to papers, liston finished folley with a vicious 4 punch combination.

I might add Lennox nearly lost to a old holyfield(who resembled nothing like a peak sonny liston), and he got outboxed by a "poor mans liston" in ray mercer who was only 6'1(like liston) with a good jab(like liston).
It's funny that you keep referring to fights that Lewis won as "being outboxed". By the way, the fight with Bruno was pretty much even, 3-3 or 4-2 at best for Bruno. Hardly mattered though, since he was knocked out a round later.
You don't need to "add" that Lewis got "outboxed" by Mercer, you've only said it like 4 times yet. Liston was 6'0, by the way.


And no, Liston didn't throw 4-5 punch combinations to end the fight with Williams. He threw one punch at a time, 4 or 5 times in a row, different thing. And why do you keep brining up fights that Liston had with journeymen like Bethea? You won't hear me about how impressive Lewis was against Calvin Jones or Tyrell Biggs.

Also interesting that these flaws in Lewis' style you see, were never exploited in 45 fights. McCall landed a blind punch during an exchange (at a time when Lewis' style was flawed) and Rahman just caught him cold with a punch. The only flaw you could point out here is that he was too arrogant at times.

In the end, the only skilled and ranked boxer that Liston outboxed was 195lbs Eddie Machen. Wow.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Disagree, I think liston at his absolute best(bethea fight) had better faster handspeed than lennox. Liston was very trim 204lb and looked fast.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here; i think Lewis had better handspeed, easily, even at 245lbs, not 204lbs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
This easily goes to liston. He took williams, valdez, dejohns best punches without blinking. lennox was knocked out by one punch twice in his prime by medioocre heavyweights.
Again another great performance of taking the best of one and the worst of the other and matching it up. How about Lewis took flush punches from Briggs, Tua, Klitschko, Mason, Mercer, Tyson, Bruno, Grant, Morrison and others without going down? Liston was never that proven.
How about Liston being knocked out cold by the first contender he faced since he was 32?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Liston gets the edge here. He had very suttle fluid "joe louis stalk you prey like" footwork. Liston was very balanced and moved in and out very calm and collectivley. never made a mistake. I think liston was more versatile.
Yeah, right.
Liston was slow as ****. His footwork was nothing special. Look at how he chases Ali around like a mummy. He never showed the adaptability that Lewis did. Did he box off the backfoot for 12 rounds without being caught on the ropes on a single occasion like Lewis did against Tua? Did he fight in a totally different style in a rematch like Lewis did with Rahman and McCall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
lewis was more proven against big heavyweights, but then again against smaller heavyweights lennox struggled. he struggled incredibly with 36 year old ray mercer and 38 year old evander holyfield, all men around the same size as liston.

I think liston was more proven vs big punchers, he proved he could take a punch. lennox did not.
Lewis struggled with Holyfield? He won the first fight by domination, and the second where he fought Holyfield's fight still by a comfortable 8-4 or 7-5 decision. Sorry, but that's not struggling. And i don't see how Mercer is small at 6'1 220+lbs. By that definition, ALL of Liston's opponents were small.

Lewis proved to be able to take a punch as well and on much more occasions than Liston. Ever had statistics? Then you will know that Liston looks a lot better here only because he only faced one or two big punchers whereas Lewis faced a ton of them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I would say even
Any arguments for why they are even in stamina?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
size isnt a big factor, lennox struggled with 6'1 215lb men(38 year old holyfield, 36 year old mercer). Besides Liston had the same reach as lennox both 84" which every way you try to spin it. look at the film, whitehurst fight liston looks like his arms could reach halfway across the ring thats how long his arms look. he was a freak of nature, they do come around a couple times every 50 years(liston was one of em). Liston has same reach as lennox. Williams reach was 82" listons was 84". deal with it, the tale of the tape doesnt lie.
Again, he didn't struggle with Holyfield. Mercer profited from the fact that Lewis did all he could to knock him out as well as the fight being 10 rounds (but Lewis still won).

I already adressed the reach-point. The tale of the tape measures wing-span, not actual boxing reach which includes height, shoulder size, back size, etc.

As for size not being a factor...
Convenient position coming from someone supporting Liston, who had only a handful of wins against 210+lbs opponents that were ranked in the top ten. Did i say a hand full? I meant a grand total of ONE.
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Old 12-06-2007, 06:06 PM   #32
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Liston IMO fought just as good if not better quality contenders than lennox did but the difference here is liston dominated them while lennox struggled/lost with many of them. Liston dominated themm all easily with no controversy, lennox had some controversial close matches and was knocked out twice.
Okay - i will adress this after you've filled in the earlier thing about who faced better opposition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I would say even

The man quit on his stool at least once and may have given up in the rematch. Yet he is even with Lewis, who never showed anything remotely close to giving up? That's a joke. Your bias is incredible. You have a way of twisting facts for them to suit your arguments. When you want to prove Walcott is better than Charles, you count the Johnson win over Charles against him while most papers thought Charles won, but the first Walcott loss against Louis of course is a win for Walcott. No one will take you serious with this kind of reasoning.
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:08 PM   #33
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by I Am Legend
the two fighters most resembling liston that lewis fought both had him out like a little faggot bitch, crying on the canvas.
How objective.
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:42 PM   #34
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Okay - i will adress this after you've filled in the earlier thing about who faced better opposition.




The man quit on his stool at least once and may have given up in the rematch. Yet he is even with Lewis, who never showed anything remotely close to giving up? That's a joke. Your bias is incredible. You have a way of twisting facts for them to suit your arguments. When you want to prove Walcott is better than Charles, you count the Johnson win over Charles against him while most papers thought Charles won, but the first Walcott loss against Louis of course is a win for Walcott. No one will take you serious with this kind of reasoning.
I have to applaud Chris here. Not taking sides, but SuzieQ certainly has to rethink the way he goes about getting his points across.
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:46 PM   #35
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

No need to rethink. Anyone can nitpick Bias out of someones posts, its quite clear chris pontius is a big fan of lennox, while im a big fan of sonny and neither of us will change our minds. As Ron Burgundy said "agree to disagree"


I will respond to your points chris.
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:47 PM   #36
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

Lennox definetly has the better resume between the two.
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Old 12-06-2007, 10:52 PM   #37
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I dont think so, both are 1 punch knockout losses at/near his prime to two ordinary heavyweights.
Okay so Lewis was near his prime against Rahman at age 35, and only 3 fights away from the end of his career, yet you say that Liston at age 32, and maybe 15 fights away from the end of his career was past it?

Let me make it clear that I agree Liston was past his best against Ali, but it has to work both ways.

By the way, the McCall fight was not exactly a one punch KO. Lewis lost that fight on his feet, and had his hands up ready to continue.
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:05 PM   #38
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

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SuzieQ, what you do is wave away all negative aspects of Listons career and highlight the positives, then talk all about the bad things that happened to Lewis and ignore the good things. That's not an objective discussion.
I could say the same about you trying to focus all the attention on listons fights with Ali.

Quote:
He was just as rusty and a grand total of 3 pounds heavier than when he stopped Patterson in one round in their rematch. How is coming off your career most impressive performance & win "far past your prime"?

And even so, does that mean we should just ignore it?
Yes. Liston entering the first Ali fight had fought a grand total of EIGHT rounds in the past 4 years! if thats not rust I dont know what is! 218lb is 7-15lb heavier than the average he had been weighing in in the late 1958-1960.

I think Sonny was past his prime by the 2nd patterson fight, he looked a bit soft. the fact that he flattened patterson again showed how devastating he is even not at his best.

Sonny Listons prime was 1958-1960



Quote:
Ring magazine didn't have him ranked and i'm not surprised considering the mediocrity of his record.

I know that you wish it to be true, but Summerlin wasn't a ranked contender when him and Liston fought, either. He would be ranked later briefly, but that's not how it works.

Marshall still knocked Liston down in the rematch, by the way.

Liston's early opposition was impressive (considering Liston's experience, that is), no doubt there.



Quote:

- Summerlin was a terrific boxer, 22-1 I believe when he fought Sonny. He wasted a lot of potential, but at one point he really made a run and came close for a title shot, with his talent he was easily good enough.

Marshall was ranked # 9 Lightheavyweight divison when he fought sonny


- Yes a flash knockdown.


Quote:


Interesting that Liston's blatant quitting is irrelevant because he was "far past his prime" and a grand total of 3 pounds overweight, while whatever lack of motivation Lewis had for the Rahman bout doesn't matter, nevermind that he was 3 years old than Liston was against Ali?

And what is your evidence that Liston's jaw was broken in the 1st? According to Boxrec it was probably broken in the 4th.

Liston overcoming Williams pounding him is impressive, but come on Suzie. You have to admit that Lewis is not only far more proven in this area but never quit like Liston did, either.
Listons best weight was 204-212lb 1958-1960

Well Liston-Ali bouts are very controversial. While I have no doubt the 2nd bout liston took a dive, I think the first fight was legit. However its clear liston was far past his prime and this was clear in listons camp by that time. He had slowed down so much that listons trainers told the sparring partners to slow down their punches try to make liston appear faster than he was to help sonnys confidence. btw i do penalize liston a bit for his quit job against ali.

Then again, Liston was knocked out cold by Hasim Rahman. Liston never suffered a loss like this to this caliber a fighter while near his prime.


Lennox may have been 35 when he fought rahman, but most liston supporters claim liston primed right around this time and that the tua preformance(a year before) was one of his best showings. or do you believe lennox was past his prime at this point?

Quote:
That "outboxed him for 10 rounds" only happened in your mind, sorry. Most people agree that Lewis won the fight by a small margin. And this poor man's Liston takes a better shot than him which was very relevant in this fight. And how did Lewis look beat mentally? He fought well during the last three rounds (when he should've been beaten mentally) and he didn't keep sitting on his stool like Liston did.
I actually know quite a few who thought mercer won the fight. Mercer outjabbed him the whole fight.

takes a better shot? thats pure speculation


Lennox was frustrated the whole fight, because 36 year old mercer had a great game plan similiar to bruno's and was outjabbing and outboxing him.


Quote:
Yeah, he got off the canvas to beat an undersized journeyman, very impressive.

I can guarantee that if Lewis got knocked down by Michael Simuwelu in his 10th pro fight but still knocked him out and avenged it, you would be talking all this about how Lewis was knocked down by a journeyman etc, not about "Lewis got up to win".

What is the relevance there anyway?
Jeffries never got up to win either. Does anyone doubt Jeffries' heart? All it means is that Lewis didn't get knocked down by inferior fighters like Liston did in this case. Lewis has shown on various occasions to come back from behind and never quit, that is enough for me.
I am simply stating a fact. May not hold alot of weight, but its a relevant fact in this discussion.

- Proving you can get off the canvas and win a fight is huge, its all mental toughness. When your on the floor, your dangerously close to losing....you have to fight through adversity not only to get back up but to stick to your game plan and not get frustrated about being knocked down and falling apart there.



Quote:
Lewis didn't get knocked down by inferior fighters like Liston did in this case.

Liston didn't get knocked out by inferior fighters like lennox did.

Quote:
Williams didn't have "about an 82" reach", he had an 80 inch reach.
And as you can see on these pictures, Liston does NOT have the longer arms:
Liston had a 84" reach. it was measured many times, tale of the tapes and papers dont lie if all of them agree listons reach was 84". New York times described williams as having an "82 reach".



Quote:
Liston in the white trunks, Williams in the black trunks. As you can see, Williams has no trouble reaching the "84 inch reach" Liston despite that his arm isn't even fully extended whereas Liston is, because he has to punch upward (and would have to even further against Lewis).

And no, i won't forget that he destroyed Williams twice, because it's just about the only point which you keep brining up. Did i mention that Williams wasn't a top 10 ranked contender at that point ?

Actually listons arm isnt extended either, you can see his elbow bent. besides they both were at a different angle while throwing the punch so we arnt able to get proper judgement. so this arguement is flawed.

Fact remains liston has an 84" reach


- your right, rankings were flawed back then. they were flawed and most of the time the unchallenged overhyped white fighters got the benefit of the doubt while the proven avoided more talented black fighters were left off.

I dont think you could name me 5 heavyweights(outside of liston) that could have beat cleveland williams in 1960
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:07 PM   #39
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

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Okay so Lewis was near his prime against Rahman at age 35, and only 3 fights away from the end of his career, yet you say that Liston at age 32, and maybe 15 fights away from the end of his career was past it?

Let me make it clear that I agree Liston was past his best against Ali, but it has to work both ways.

By the way, the McCall fight was not exactly a one punch KO. Lewis lost that fight on his feet, and had his hands up ready to continue.

so woody, your logic is a fighters prime is all about how old they are?


Everyone primes differently. Many Lennox supporters think of him as a late bloomers whose prime was in his early-mid 30s.
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:08 PM   #40
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

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By the way, the McCall fight was not exactly a one punch KO. Lewis lost that fight on his feet, and had his hands up ready to continue.
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HA! you mean the way he looked at the ref glassy eyed like he didnt know where he was with his body falling backward and forward cause his legs had turned to jelly? he was out on his feet, good call by the referee.


The mere fact lennox suffered two one punch knockout losses to rahman and mccall shows you he would at the very least be vunerable to getting knocked out by a great puncher like liston
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:21 PM   #41
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

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Yeah, Botha look like a philsbury doughboy and you were laughing all the time. Of course, when that monster of a journeyman, the 5'7 195lbs Albert Westphal got into the picture your jaw dropped from being impressed. Nice objective analysis again.

Westphal was not 5'7. Westphal looked like a fighter, he had muscle tone and was cut. Botha was a joke.

Quote:
Liston faster hands that Lewis? I suggest you re-watch the film in an objective way.
I did. It appears you should take off those rose coloured glasses and look at the film again. This time a 1958-1960 Liston.

Quote:
I see you left out Tua, Klitschko, Rahman, Briggs, Bruno and Tyson.

p.s. Golota was more athletically talented than anyone Liston ever faced excluding Ali. The way he beat Bowe on the inside, outside, everywhere from pillar to post is more impressive than anyone Williams ever did.
No I included these men. They are all big punchers. However it must be noted most of these guys did not connect on lennox, and the some that did staggered lennox badly but didnt have the finishing skills to finish him off. Lennox has very good defense, very underated in this department, he was able to survive against all these punchers because he protected his weak chin with solid defense.

Quote:
p.s. Golota was more athletically talented than anyone Liston ever faced excluding Ali. The way he beat Bowe on the inside, outside, everywhere from pillar to post is more impressive than anyone Williams ever did.
More athletically talented? this is debatable, as golota looked pretty crude in the ring compared to a master stylist like zora folley and eddie machen, not to mention floyd patterson.


Bowe was shot, he looked awful. I felt so bad for bowe, he was damaged goods by the age of 27. Many heavyweights in the world would have beat him in 1996.

May I add Golota lost to bowe, so two DQ losses to a shot version of bowe is not more impressive than williams demolition of 6'6 ernie terell.



Quote:
Yeah, okay. Too bad that despite his enormous power, he has a grand total of zero knockouts against a contender. In case you're brining up Terrel now, he wasn't ranked when Williams knocked him out (he was ranked after he beat Williams in a rematch, though).
If you go by the monthly ratings and not the yearly ratings, he has knockout wins over rated contenders. Terell was 23-3 when he fought williams and was in the monthly ratings, no exuses.


- Terell-Williams rematch was a good one........williams knocked him down and appeared to earn the victory, but a hotly contested split decision was awared to terell.

Fact is when Cleveland Williams stepped up in competition in his prime he looked great. He gave a peak sonny liston his two toughest fights, fought a draw against master boxer top contender eddie machen, and went 1-1 with terell in a series that should have gone 2-0 in williams favor.

Its not secret that Damato ducked williams like the plague.


Quote:
Fact is that his record against contenders is pretty bad.

Look at his matches in his prime 1957-1963 and you will see he did extremley well when he stepped up in competition. that is unless you want to count post 1964 fights when he had a bullet lodged in his back?
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:54 PM   #42
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
HA! you mean the way he looked at the ref glassy eyed like he didnt know where he was with his body falling backward and forward cause his legs had turned to jelly? he was out on his feet, good call by the referee.


The mere fact lennox suffered two one punch knockout losses to rahman and mccall shows you he would at the very least be vunerable to getting knocked out by a great puncher like liston
There's an interesting field that's been around for sometime now called stats. One of the many concepts in stats is called probabilities. I would suggest that although Lewis could possibly get knocked out in a mythical match up against Liston, it's highly probable that this doesn't happen.

By way of an exercise let's take some ball park numbers. Fights, Lewis was in 44 fights. In the first Holyfield fight it was reported that Holyfield landed 130 punches, in the Tyson fight, Tyson landed 49 punches, so let's assume about 50 punches were landed each fight, which I think is ridiculously low, and we'll assume 25 of those are power punches. So we have a bear minimum of 44*25 = 1100 punches. Let's round it down to a 1,000 punches of which 2 K0'd him. That's a .2% chance that a punch is going to KO Lewis. So betting that Sonny is going to KO Lewis, doesn't look like a money maker to me. Now I know the quality of a fighter makes a difference, but Lewis fought many of his fights against ranked fighters. And even it non ranked fighters are excluded, you'd be hard pressed to break that elussive 1% mark on a punches landed basis. Now if you go a step further and say he was KO'd twice in 44 fights, that's still only a 5% probability that he'd get KO'd by Liston. And if you say what about the quality of fighter, and may the assumption that many Lewis haters do, that both McCall and Rahman are second rate, than no elite fighter ever knocked him out, so why assume Liston would be the first. So if you want to use the results of the McCall and Rahman fight to extrapolate an outcome, this is where it leads to.

Last edited by Vanboxingfan; 12-07-2007 at 12:42 AM.
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:55 PM   #43
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
so woody, your logic is a fighters prime is all about how old they are?
Well, You're logic seems to be that a man who comes off the best win of his career is past his prime, as was the case with Liston after beating Patterson.

Quote:
Everyone primes differently. Many Lennox supporters think of him as a late bloomers whose prime was in his early-mid 30s.
True, but I think the general concences is that he was in his prime somewhere between 1995-1998. By the time he fought Rahman in 2001, he was 5 months away from turning 36, and only 2 years and 3 fights away from retirement. I'm not saying that he was shot by any means, but he certainly wasn't in his prime. But of course Liston who was coming off the best win of his career at age 32, and with a number of fights to go was past it. You can't have it both ways.
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:55 PM   #44
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

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Liston faced better competition?
Okay - let's invest. I will list the names that Lewis beat, for every one of them you provide a name that Liston beat that is at least as good or better, alright? If you can list names in addition to that, you receive extra points. Here we go.

Lewis beat:
Weaver
Ruddock (ranked)
Mason
Tucker (ranked)
Bruno (ranked)
McCall (ranked)
Mercer (ranked)
Morrison (ranked)
Akinwande (ranked)
Golota (ranked)
Grant (ranked)
Tua (ranked)
Briggs (ranked)
Holyfield I (ranked)
Holyfield II (ranked)
Botha
Rahman (ranked)
Tyson (ranked)
V. Klitschko (ranked)

Looking forward to what names you will come up with to show Liston faced tougher opposition. Include if they were ranked in the Ring top10 when they and Liston fought, as i did with Lewis.



2 things.........

- rankings were flawed back then. they were flawed and most of the time the unchallenged overhyped white fighters got the benefit of the doubt while the proven avoided more talented black fighters were left off. There were some fighters that liston may have beat(that werent ranked in the top 10) yet their werent 5 heavyweights in the world at the time that could beat them. This happened alot in joe louis reign. Guys like harry bobo, Lee Q murray, turkey Thompson getting screwed. same with marcianos reign guys like bob baker and clarence henry getting screwed.

- 2ndly, It should be added liston also lost to rahman and mccall



Lewis beat:
Weaver
Ruddock (ranked)
Mason
Tucker (ranked)
Bruno (ranked)
McCall (ranked)
Mercer (ranked)
Morrison (ranked)
Akinwande (ranked)
Golota (ranked)
Grant (ranked)
Tua (ranked)
Briggs (ranked)
Holyfield I (ranked)
Holyfield II (ranked)
Botha
Rahman (ranked)
Tyson (ranked)
V. Klitschko (ranked)



Liston beat


26 year old Floyd Patterson 2x- better than any heavyweight on that list, including a 38 year old holyfield.

27 year old Eddie Machen - Better than 7/8 of that list

26 year old Zora Folley- Better than 7/8 of that list

26 year old Cleveland Williams 2x- Better than 7/8 of that list.

34 year old Nino Valdez- lets call him and 34 year old frank bruno a push. both big punchers with strong jabs.

24 year old Wayne Bethea

23 year old Johnny Summerlin 2x

27 year old Mike Dejohn

25 year old Roy Harris

all of these men were top 10 heavyweights in the world(regardless of ranking) when liston tangled with them.

others:

Henry Clark
Gerhard Zhech
Bert Whitehurst
Willie Besmanoff
Chuck Wepner
Albert Westphal




Lennox may have the edge in depth, but liston has the edge in quality.





Take note: All except 1 of these opponents liston beat were at the prime of there careers, while many of those top notch names on lennox resume were not near there primes when they tangled with lennox.



lets take a look..........


Lennox beat


38 year old evander holyfield- Many ringsiders scored the 2nd fightfor holyfield, and this series could easily be 1-1. Holyfield would lose to ruiz shortly afterward, he was defintley over the hill. coming into the lennox bout he looked dreadful against vaugn bean.


33 year old frank bruno

36 year old ray mercer

34 year old vitali klitschko

32 year old francis Botha

36 year old tony tucker

37 year old mike tyson

40 year old mike weaver

Tommy Morrison- Sick with a disease when he fought Sonny




All of the top men Sonny liston beat(outside of 34 year old nino valdez) were under the age of 30.




Domination:

Sonny Liston dominated all of the top men he beat without any controversy.


Williams 2x , patterson 2x, harris, folley, bethea, dejohn, Valdez all fell in 6 rounds or less

The decision over eddie machen, Liston won 10 out of the 12 rounds against a master boxer.

He won 2 close decisions over johnny summerlin in his closest bouts, but this was sonnys 6th and 7th pro fights.

Muhammad Ali- quit on his stool in 7th with scorecards even, but ali in command clearly.



As you see Lennox didnt have anywhere near this kind of domination against top fighters he faced




Vitali Klitschko- outboxed and Behind on scorecards. in fairness lennox was over the hill.

Frank Bruno- outboxed....I dont know if you seen the fight, but Bruno clearly won at least 4 of the first 6 rounds. thanx to lennox finally utilizing his underated left hook he finished off bruno. again a tense struggle.

evander holyfield- very close 2nd fight, holy was 38 and looked old and battle worn

oliver mccall- knocked out with one punch

hasim rahman- knocked out by one punch

ray mercer- dead even fight, huge struggle against 36 year old mercer. outboxed.



still as you see lennox clearly struggled alot more against top opponents than liston did
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Old 12-06-2007, 11:58 PM   #45
SuzieQ49
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

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True, but I think the general concences is that he was in his prime somewhere between 1995-1998. By the time he fought Rahman in 2001, he was 5 months away from turning 36, and only 2 years and 3 fights away from retirement. I'm not saying that he was shot by any means, but he certainly wasn't in his prime. But of course Liston who was coming off the best win of his career at age 32, and with a number of fights to go was past it. You can't have it both ways.
Classic Lennox nuthugger trying to put his prime 'inbetween' his 2 embarrasing knockout losses. you admit his prime was around the time when 36 year old ray mercer outjabbed and outboxed lennox lewis? and around the time lennox struggled vastly against 38 year old evander holyfield in a match many believe holy should have got the nod(i had it 114-114)



Sonny Listons prime was 1958-1960. not that after 1960....he fought only a total of 8 rounds until 1964! EIGHT ROUNDS IN FOUR YEARS!! if thats not rusty i dont know what is. He got older during these years, got overweight, and looked slower and less sharp in the ring by 1964.


Liston was also around 34 when he fought ali, not 32. his birth certificate was misplaced and many people misguide the year he was born.
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