Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

[quote]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

HA! you mean the way he looked at the ref glassy eyed like he didnt know where he was with his body falling backward and forward cause his legs had turned to jelly? he was out on his feet, good call by the referee.

Yeah laugh it up. You already made a fool out of yourself by saying that it was " a one punch knockout"

The mere fact lennox suffered two one punch knockout losses to rahman and mccall shows you he would at the very least be vunerable to getting knocked out by a great puncher like liston

First of all, you keep repeating yourself like a broken record by saying that Lewis suffered a one punch knockout against McCall. Just in case you don't know the difference ( and you clearly don't ), a fight isn't ruled a knockout when a guy is standing on his feet. This is just plain nonsense. Also, Lewis was fairly close to the same age that Liston was when he was Ko'd by Leotis Martin. Now I don't count that fight for much, but I just want to point out how you constantly neglect to look at it both ways.

Secondly, you keep refering to only two of Lewis's fights with big hitters, but fail to address that he fought at least a dozen other big hitters. Tell me, have you ever heard of, Frank Bruno, Tommy Morrison, Gary Mason, Razor Ruddock, Vitali Klitschko, Shanon Briggs or David Tua? Liston never took shots from that many big hitters. No way in hell. You debate with a one way pattern of thinking. You never seem to look at the whole picture from both sides of the coin.

[quote=SuzieQ49]Classic Lennox nuthugger trying to put his prime 'inbetween' his 2 embarrasing knockout losses. you admit his prime was around the time when 36 year old ray mercer outjabbed and outboxed lennox lewis? and around the time lennox struggled vastly against 38 year old evander holyfield in a match many believe holy should have got the nod(i had it 114-114)

I'm not a Lewis nuthugger. Nice try at attempting to turn the tables here, when the real issue, is your inability to argue with unbiased reasoning. Thats the difference between you and I. I look at the whole picture, you only look at what you want to look at when it conveinences you. And oh, if you honestly saw the first Holyfield fight, I think that youd agree that that fight wasn't even close.

Sonny Listons prime was 1958-1960. not that after 1960....he fought only a total of 8 rounds until 1964! EIGHT ROUNDS IN FOUR YEARS!! if thats not rusty i dont know what is. He got older during these years, got overweight, and looked slower and less sharp in the ring by 1964

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I understand that, and had you been listening, I already AGREED WITH YOU that Liston was past his prime against Ali. My only point is that you can't go around calling a guy who's nearly 36 years old, and at the end of his career prime, while calling another guy who's 32, and with 5 years left in him past it. As I already stated IT WORKS BOTH WAYS...BOTH WAYS... BOTH WAYS... BOTH WAYS....

Liston was also around 34 when he fought ali, not 32. his birth certificate was misplaced and many people misguide the year he was born.[

Believe it or not, some people even speculate that he was even older than 34 when he fought Ali. This information was inconclusive however, and never truly proven. Now I believe that he probably was older than 32, given that he came from a family if 25 children and had no real documentation of date of birth. It was common among large families of low income in those days. This is still not my point though.

[SuzieQ49]

It's funny that you keep referring to fights that Lewis won as "being outboxed". By the way, the fight with Bruno was pretty much even, 3-3 or 4-2 at best for Bruno. Hardly mattered though, since he was knocked out a round later.
You don't need to "add" that Lewis got "outboxed" by Mercer, you've only said it like 4 times yet. Liston was 6'0, by the way.

liston was 6'0 1/2 rounded up to 6'1. many papers had him listed as 6'1.

bruno fight pretty much even? then im guessing you simply looked at boxrec and didnt watch the fight. bruno badly outboxed lennox for 6 rounds until lennox got smart and unleashed his left hook.

Valdes stood with one foot in retirement. He retired 4 months after the Liston fight, doesn't that tell you something?
DeJohn was a good puncher although his KO record is little over 50%.

yes it tells me valdez took a horrible beating from liston and that he realized he had no shot at the heavyweight title with liston in the picture.


your dodging the fact Sonny Liston beat wayne bethea, Mike Dejohn 2x, Harold Carter, Pat Mccmutry. Since I know that you like to go by "ring rankings" mcmutry was ranked 5th when valdez knocked him out in 1 round, and dejohn was ranked 7th when valdez twice beat him, and wayne bethea was ranked 8th when valdez beat him. all this occured just one year before he fought sonny.

Nino Valdez was ranked # 2 entering 1959 the year sonny liston fought him, so whether you think valdez dramatically lost all his abilities in months, its quite clear that valdez was still a big damaging dangerous puncher when he fought liston as evidence by his victories over contenders in a year span window around the time he fought liston.

Ever think he retired after one more fight after liston(in which he knocked out brian london) because liston beat him up so bad he forced valdez into retirement?

I don't see it, sorry. Valdes was way past his prime and practically retired. A quote where he says he isn't doesn't prove shit. Actions speak louder than words. The action? He retired 4 months later.

perhaps you dont see it because the fog that wreaks of bias is clouding your vision? I explained to you that valdez was knocking out legite contenders months leading up to the sonny liston bout and entering the beginning of the year was himself ranked # 2. Valdez clearly was still a one of the best punchers in the divsion and had the size(6'3 215lb).

Okay, so if i gift you Valdes, then you have 4 punchers on his record, one of which with a 50% ko ratio. How does that compare to the something like 12 punchers on Lewis' record?

It compares favorably when you consider 2 of those times lennox was knocked out cold by one punch


Liston took williams, dejohns, valdez flush punches without blinking. Hell even hard punching floyd patterson hit liston a couple times and liston laughed.

For what its worth, in the amatuers liston faced 6'4 220lb olympic champion ed sanders and boxed ed sanders ears off for an easy decision, this was liston without world class training beating a huge powerful olympic champion with his jab and natural talent alone. pretty impressive. ed sanders would have been a great pro if not for his shortened career.

It's funny that you keep referring to fights that Lewis won as "being outboxed". By the way, the fight with Bruno was pretty much even, 3-3 or 4-2 at best for Bruno. Hardly mattered though, since he was knocked out a round later.
You don't need to "add" that Lewis got "outboxed" by Mercer, you've only said it like 4 times yet. Liston was 6'0, by the way.


And no, Liston didn't throw 4-5 punch combinations to end the fight with Williams. He threw one punch at a time, 4 or 5 times in a row, different thing. And why do you keep brining up fights that Liston had with journeymen like Bethea? You won't hear me about how impressive Lewis was against Calvin Jones or Tyrell Biggs.

Also interesting that these flaws in Lewis' style you see, were never exploited in 45 fights. McCall landed a blind punch during an exchange (at a time when Lewis' style was flawed) and Rahman just caught him cold with a punch. The only flaw you could point out here is that he was too arrogant at times.

lewis style was always flawed, just more so when he fought mccall. it wasnt blind, mccall set him up waiting for him to drop that left after he jabbed.

rahman didnt catch him with a cold punch, lennox backed up into the ropes like a clown with his hands low, he deserved it to get hit like he did.

In the end, the only skilled and ranked boxer that Liston outboxed was 195lbs Eddie Machen. Wow.

He didnt have to outbox them, he knocked them out. ranked and skilled boxers floyd patterson and zora folley fell victim in less than 4 rounds.

And no, Liston didn't throw 4-5 punch combinations to end the fight with Williams. He threw one punch at a time, 4 or 5 times in a row, different thing. And why do you keep brining up fights that Liston had with journeymen like Bethea? You won't hear me about how impressive Lewis was against Calvin Jones or Tyrell Biggs.

Liston threw a 4 punch combination that had williams head buzzing right before the the first left hook to put him down. you say one at a time, but foreman threw one a time, and he got the job done. Liston mixed it up, ive seen him throw 4-5 punch combinations a number of times while other times he threw clubbing haymaker after haymaker. He hit so damm hard it go the job done. Liston had excellent punching technique. watch the 2nd patterson fight liston puts floyd down with a 4 punch combo.

[SuzieQ49]

Yeah laugh it up. You already made a fool out of yourself by saying that it was " a one punch knockout"

you just made a bigger fool out of yourself. it was a one punch kayo! one punch and it ended the fight, the ref stopped the fight, with lennox out on his feet after one right hand put him down!

[SuzieQ49]

Also, Lewis was fairly close to the same age that Liston was when he was Ko'd by Leotis Martin.

depending on when you believe sonny liston was born, liston was around 40-41 years old when he fought leotis. lennox was retired by age 37.

Secondly, you keep refering to only two of Lewis's fights with big hitters, but fail to address that he fought at least a dozen other big hitters. Tell me, have you ever heard of, Frank Bruno, Tommy Morrison, Gary Mason, Razor Ruddock, Vitali Klitschko, Shanon Briggs or David Tua? Liston never took shots from that many big hitters. No way in hell. You debate with a one way pattern of thinking. You never seem to look at the whole picture from both sides of the coin.
Top

Yes i have heard of those fighters. ive seen all those fights. Some of those fights lennox struggled, some of those fights those guys werent at there best when they fought lennox.

he didnt take shots, he didnt get hit flush that much and when he did he was staggered. fact is lennox had very good defense and this prevented him from getting his average chin exposed.


Lennox didnt have a glass tommy morrison type jaw, but it certainly was not a very good one. His chin was average

And oh, if you honestly saw the first Holyfield fight, I think that youd agree that that fight wasn't even close.

were not talking about the first holy fight. were talking about the 2nd holy fight.



keep up the good discussions

[dmt]

Suzie, Liston was also stopped by Ali by the "Phantom" punch

[SuzieQ49]

DMT

"Tunney beat a shot dempsey cunt!!!!"

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

you just made a bigger fool out of yourself. it was a one punch kayo! one punch and it ended the fight, the ref stopped the fight, with lennox out on his feet after one right hand put him down!

Below is a link to boxrec. Click on it, and you'll find Lennox Lewis's record. Search for the loss to Oliver McCall. The result in the right column is highlighted in red. It clearly says TKO, which stands for technical knockout. If the abreviation was KO, then it would be a knockout.

Send me a private message if you need any help,

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[SuzieQ49]

fact is one punch ended the fight which ever way you spin it. that one punch was the reason the fight ended.

[dmt]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

DMT

"Tunney beat a shot dempsey cunt!!!!"

[dmt]

though Suzie that is getting a bit old now

[SuzieQ49]

yo do you know where I can find the full conversation you posed that time? i orginally had it and used to make a joke out of it, but its been 8 months since i last came on and cant find it

[dmt]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

yo do you know where I can find the full conversation you posed that time? i orginally had it and used to make a joke out of it, but its been 8 months since i last came on and cant find it

it got wiped out, so did the entire site a few months ago

[OLD FOGEY]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

depending on when you believe sonny liston was born, liston was around 40-41 years old when he fought leotis. lennox was retired by age 37.




Yes i have heard of those fighters. ive seen all those fights. Some of those fights lennox struggled, some of those fights those guys werent at there best when they fought lennox.

he didnt take shots, he didnt get hit flush that much and when he did he was staggered. fact is lennox had very good defense and this prevented him from getting his average chin exposed.


Lennox didnt have a glass tommy morrison type jaw, but it certainly was not a very good one. His chin was average



were not talking about the first holy fight. were talking about the 2nd holy fight.



keep up the good discussions

On Liston's age--someone pointed out on a thread a few months ago that Liston was not on the 1930 census. I checked up on it myself and his brothers and sisters born across the 1920's are given but Charles Liston was not born yet in 1930. I used to think he might have been born as early as 1927, but 1932 now seems the most likely date. The census would be the best evidence I think.

[fists of fury]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

Interesting that no on mention yet is made of Liston's heart. It seems Liston gets a free pass for quitting blatantly against a light hitting opponent right after his career best win.
Just compare that to Mike Tyson. Tyson fought his heart out against Douglas, but showed signs of quitting mentally against Holyfield (first time), yet still took his beating like a man. The same thing seemed to happen when he fought Lennox Lewis. It was only after that that he really lost interest in winning (but no one holds that one punch cold KO against Liston at high age against him, right?) that he started quitting.

Yes, Liston fought and finished with a broken jaw against Marshall.
Who, in case you forgot, was a journeyman that was barely over the lightheavyweight limit but he beat that big bear. Tyson also showed great heart against Bruno (I), Douglas and Botha. That doesn't stop him from getting a shitload of criticism, "Tyson couldn't handle pressure", etc when these sort of discussions come up.

Why does Liston get a free pass on this department? Because he has 15" fists? Fact is that Lewis has never been intimidated and Liston would be no different. Liston was intimated like hell by Ali and folded like a cheap suit once, perhaps twice. Liston is the one without self-confidence here. He has been controlled his entire life. Just hear him speak, he has that shy-stutter despite that he can beat the shit out of 99% of the people. You cannot ignore these factors. Lewis has proven his heart beyond any doubt in the Mercer, Bruno and Klitschko fights. Liston's is a question mark.




I'll take Lewis by knockout or decision. He has a much bigger actual reach (forget that wingspan bullshit, 6'3 80" Williams clearly had a much bigger reach than Liston) and more importantly, much faster hands. After the fight, people would comment on how remarkably small Liston looked when he got in the ring with a big heavyweight for a change. The mythical picture of a 6'8 250lbs bear was in fact 6'0 200-212lbs.


I don't like Liston's punching compared to Lewis. Lewis' was much more smooth. Watch for instance Liston finishing Williams in their second fight. It seems he pushes those right hands out, slowly telegraphed and one by one. Compare that to a finish like Lewis-Botha and you'll see the difference.

Liston has a grand total of 2 fights against punchers. Williams' career only KO is Terrel and a long string of Texas bums. Satterfield KO'd him also. Lewis faced a ton of punchers, Ruddock, Tua, Klitschko, Tyson (still good for a few rounds), Bruno, Morrison, Grant, Mercer, Briggs, Golota, Tucker, Mason, Rahman, McCall.
Lewis is the more proven man here.

Marciano gets a lot of criticism for beating small heavyweights, but how often did Liston face a 210+lbs heavyweight? One is Williams who was unranked. The other is Ali who beat the crap out of him twice.

Fantastic post.
Like you, I always have questioned Sonny's heart when the going got tough. Like all bullies, he could not take what he dished out.

Liston was as you say, also as slow as molasses. That's why he could never beat Ali on the best night he ever saw.

Lewis holds the aces here. Sonny folds after a few rounds of taking a bit of a shellacking.