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Old 12-07-2007, 06:36 AM   #61
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I could say the same about you trying to focus all the attention on listons fights with Ali.
Yes, but i don't say "Lewis' KO losses DONT COUNT!! HE WAS UNPREPARED!!" as you do with Liston quitting.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Yes. Liston entering the first Ali fight had fought a grand total of EIGHT rounds in the past 4 years! if thats not rust I dont know what is! 218lb is 7-15lb heavier than the average he had been weighing in in the late 1958-1960.
being 215lbs didn't seem to matter one bit as he still destroyed Patterson in 1 second less than the first time.

By the way, did you know that boxers spar in between fights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I think Sonny was past his prime by the 2nd patterson fight, he looked a bit soft. the fact that he flattened patterson again showed how devastating he is even not at his best.

Sonny Listons prime was 1958-1960
Yeah, he really looked like a man past his prime when he destroyed Patterson in 100 or so seconds.




Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
- Summerlin was a terrific boxer, 22-1 I believe when he fought Sonny. He wasted a lot of potential, but at one point he really made a run and came close for a title shot, with his talent he was easily good enough.

Marshall was ranked # 9 Lightheavyweight divison when he fought sonny


- Yes a flash knockdown.
Yeah keep talking about Liston's opponents wasting potential, "would've been" etc. Ed Sanders would've been champ right? Let's go by the facts. Summerlin was ranked for an extremely short amount of time and that was not during the Liston fights.




Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Listons best weight was 204-212lb 1958-1960

Well Liston-Ali bouts are very controversial. While I have no doubt the 2nd bout liston took a dive, I think the first fight was legit. However its clear liston was far past his prime and this was clear in listons camp by that time. He had slowed down so much that listons trainers told the sparring partners to slow down their punches try to make liston appear faster than he was to help sonnys confidence. btw i do penalize liston a bit for his quit job against ali.
What is your evidence that Liston's trainers told the sparring partners to slow down? I've never heard that and it sounds like the last advice i'd give if i was training him.

Certainly the press didn't think so. "Liston looked his awesome self" was the comment, as he was drilling the speed and heavy bag to the tune of Night Train.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Then again, Liston was knocked out cold by Hasim Rahman. Liston never suffered a loss like this to this caliber a fighter while near his prime.
No, then again, it's hard to lose anything when a fighters prime lasts 2 years long as you're making Liston's out to be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Lennox may have been 35 when he fought rahman, but most liston supporters claim liston primed right around this time and that the tua preformance(a year before) was one of his best showings. or do you believe lennox was past his prime at this point?
He was a bit slower against Tua than he was against, say, McCall II or Mercer. But he was definitely in his prime, yes. His prime was from 1992 to 2003.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
takes a better shot? thats pure speculation
How is that speculation? Lewis beat the crap out of him for 10 rounds with all he had (needless to say, Mercer landed plenty in return, but that's not the point here). Damiani did the same. Holyfield hit him often. Mercer's defense was weak yet he was only knocked down once in his prime, on a body shot, nothing reflecting on the chin. Wlad gave him one of the worst beatings i've ever seen a heavyweight take over 6 rounds yet he was floored only once, when he was 40. Liston never took this kind of punishment, so no, i wouldn't say it's speculation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Lennox was frustrated the whole fight, because 36 year old mercer had a great game plan similiar to bruno's and was outjabbing and outboxing him.
Totally different fights and fighters. Mercer came forward and took everything Lewis had, while Lewis was fighting aggressive. Most of this fight took place in the trenches, not so much a jabbing contest.

Bruno stalked forward robotically and indeed he did well, but here's some news for you: winning 4 of the first 6 rounds doesn't win you a fight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I am simply stating a fact. May not hold alot of weight, but its a relevant fact in this discussion.

- Proving you can get off the canvas and win a fight is huge, its all mental toughness. When your on the floor, your dangerously close to losing....you have to fight through adversity not only to get back up but to stick to your game plan and not get frustrated about being knocked down and falling apart there.
Since you're on Liston's side, i advise you stay away from bringing up "mental toughness". Liston doesn't score very well there.

And yeah, i rather pick someone who wasn't knocked down by a journeyman lightheavyweight and proved his heart plenty than someone who was knocked down and lost to a lightheavyweight journeyman and quit on his stool later.




Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Liston didn't get knocked out by inferior fighters like lennox did.
Ah yes, the great heavyweight champion 180lbs Marty Marshall wasn't inferior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Liston had a 84" reach. it was measured many times, tale of the tapes and papers dont lie if all of them agree listons reach was 84". New York times described williams as having an "82 reach".

Actually listons arm isnt extended either, you can see his elbow bent. besides they both were at a different angle while throwing the punch so we arnt able to get proper judgement. so this arguement is flawed.

Fact remains liston has an 84" reach
[/quote]

Why do you keep repeating the same points? Liston's wasn't bent, Liston is the one on the left in case you assume that the big guy is Liston (did you notice how small Liston looks when he's in with a real heavyweight for a change?).




Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
- your right, rankings were flawed back then. they were flawed and most of the time the unchallenged overhyped white fighters got the benefit of the doubt while the proven avoided more talented black fighters were left off.

I dont think you could name me 5 heavyweights(outside of liston) that could have beat cleveland williams in 1960
Again you base your argument on speculation which is irrelevant. The ring magazine are the most objective rankings you'll get. You think they were perfect in the 90's?
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:43 AM   #62
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Westphal was not 5'7. Westphal looked like a fighter, he had muscle tone and was cut. Botha was a joke.
Herbie Hide looked like a fighter too. But he was shit (although much more accomplished than Westphal, who would've been totally unknown if not for getting knocked out by Liston).


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I did. It appears you should take off those rose coloured glasses and look at the film again. This time a 1958-1960 Liston.
Alright, well we're not gonna agree here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
No I included these men. They are all big punchers. However it must be noted most of these guys did not connect on lennox, and the some that did staggered lennox badly but didnt have the finishing skills to finish him off. Lennox has very good defense, very underated in this department, he was able to survive against all these punchers because he protected his weak chin with solid defense.
They all landed on Lewis on time or another. Just watch this video:
BORKED


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
More athletically talented? this is debatable, as golota looked pretty crude in the ring compared to a master stylist like zora folley and eddie machen, not to mention floyd patterson.
Golota crude?
He did it all, throw combinations, duck, slip, jab, preventing Bowe from getting his uppercuts off.
And he has a full 60 pounds on undersized heavies like Patterson.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Bowe was shot, he looked awful. I felt so bad for bowe, he was damaged goods by the age of 27. Many heavyweights in the world would have beat him in 1996.

May I add Golota lost to bowe, so two DQ losses to a shot version of bowe is not more impressive than williams demolition of 6'6 ernie terell.
Bowe was the first man to stop Holyfield in his very previous fight. Is this the same way Liston was all of a sudden way past his prime when he was beat one fight after he stopped Patterson again?
Bowe was on a steady decline from the moment he won the title, Golota was the first one to really capitalize on it.

By the way, why do you mentioned Terrel was 6'6? You don't have the bigger is better disease again have you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
If you go by the monthly ratings and not the yearly ratings, he has knockout wins over rated contenders. Terell was 23-3 when he fought williams and was in the monthly ratings, no exuses.
Just the fact that you have to go by monthly ratings shows how desperate you are to pump them up. None of them could sustain a ranking for an extended period of time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
- Terell-Williams rematch was a good one........williams knocked him down and appeared to earn the victory, but a hotly contested split decision was awared to terell.

Fact is when Cleveland Williams stepped up in competition in his prime he looked great. He gave a peak sonny liston his two toughest fights, fought a draw against master boxer top contender eddie machen, and went 1-1 with terell in a series that should have gone 2-0 in williams favor.

Its not secret that Damato ducked williams like the plague.


Look at his matches in his prime 1957-1963 and you will see he did extremley well when he stepped up in competition. that is unless you want to count post 1964 fights when he had a bullet lodged in his back?
[/quote]

Fact remains that he retired with a grand total of ONE contender beat in his entire career, zero if we go by yearly rankings. You can spin it all you want, but this is not impressive at all.
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Old 12-07-2007, 07:01 AM   #63
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
2 things.........

- rankings were flawed back then. they were flawed and most of the time the unchallenged overhyped white fighters got the benefit of the doubt while the proven avoided more talented black fighters were left off. There were some fighters that liston may have beat(that werent ranked in the top 10) yet their werent 5 heavyweights in the world at the time that could beat them. This happened alot in joe louis reign. Guys like harry bobo, Lee Q murray, turkey Thompson getting screwed. same with marcianos reign guys like bob baker and clarence henry getting screwed.

- 2ndly, It should be added liston also lost to rahman and mccall
Rankings have always been flawed to a small degree and always will be. They were also in the 90's. It evens out.


I wrote the names you gave for Liston behind Lewis'. To help you, i also added whether or not they were ranked in the yearly rankings. Let's compare:


Lewis beat: Liston beat:
Weaver Patterson (ranked)
Ruddock (ranked) Patterson (ranked)
Mason Machen (ranked)
Tucker (ranked) Williams
Bruno (ranked) Williams
McCall (ranked) Valdes
Mercer (ranked) Bethea
Morrison (ranked) Summerlin
Akinwande (ranked) Summerlin
Golota (ranked) Folley (ranked)
Grant (ranked) Harris
Tua (ranked) DeJohn (ranked)
Briggs (ranked) Clark
Holyfield I (ranked) Zhech
Holyfield II (ranked) Besmanoff
Botha Wepner
Rahman (ranked) Westphal
Tyson (ranked)
V. Klitschko (ranked)

A mere five of Liston's opponents were ranked compared to 17 of Lewis' opponents were. I mean, it's not even close. You can spin things all you want to by your own biased judgement that they should be in the top10, but they weren't.

Oh, and Patterson most certainly isn't better than anyone on Lewis' resume, are you kidding me? Klitschko would beat him down like he did Williams. Tua would knock him out easily. Well, i can go on, but the list is too long. If you think a 180lbs heavyweight with no chin and average power can beat those, than you are really stretching things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Lennox may have the edge in depth, but liston has the edge in quality.
Only in your mind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Take note: All except 1 of these opponents liston beat were at the prime of there careers, while many of those top notch names on lennox resume were not near there primes when they tangled with lennox.



lets take a look..........

Lennox beat

38 year old evander holyfield- Many ringsiders scored the 2nd fightfor holyfield, and this series could easily be 1-1. Holyfield would lose to ruiz shortly afterward, he was defintley over the hill. coming into the lennox bout he looked dreadful against vaugn bean.


33 year old frank bruno
36 year old ray mercer
34 year old vitali klitschko
32 year old francis Botha
36 year old tony tucker
37 year old mike tyson
40 year old mike weaver

Tommy Morrison- Sick with a disease when he fought Sonny
Morrison sick with a disease? Yeah, i guess it was aids that knocked him down and not those uppercuts, left hooks and right hands. I've never in my entire life heard this excuse to discredit Lewis' win over Morrison.

You listed all their ages, but this is a bad comparison. Different era's. In the 90's, fighters had much more extended amateur careers and fought less often, which is why most of them weren't worn down physically by the age of 30 and gained a good amount of experience only there, which is why most were in their primes in that age. Just look at Lewis himself.

By the way, you've only printed the names of Lewis' opponents with age over 30. I know that this list looks just as long as Liston's list, but Lewis beat a lot more guys. In psychology, this is called Selection Bias. Look it up on Wikipedia if you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Domination:

Sonny Liston dominated all of the top men he beat without any controversy.

Williams 2x , patterson 2x, harris, folley, bethea, dejohn, Valdez all fell in 6 rounds or less

The decision over eddie machen, Liston won 10 out of the 12 rounds against a master boxer.

He won 2 close decisions over johnny summerlin in his closest bouts, but this was sonnys 6th and 7th pro fights.

Muhammad Ali- quit on his stool in 7th with scorecards even, but ali in command clearly.

As you see Lennox didnt have anywhere near this kind of domination against top fighters he faced
That's true, although it should be noted that:
A) Lewis faced 3 times more ranked contenders than Liston, which is lot easier to be dominant over
B) Liston's dominance was in a mere 3 years and after that it ended. You can select several 3 year periods of Lewis' career and say he dominated just the same.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Vitali Klitschko- outboxed and Behind on scorecards. in fairness lennox was over the hill.
Unlike Liston, Lewis dug really deep and managed to win this one. What did Liston do when faced with a ranked contender at age 37? He got knocked out cold by one punch. And Klitschko is miles ahead of Martin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Frank Bruno- outboxed....I dont know if you seen the fight, but Bruno clearly won at least 4 of the first 6 rounds. thanx to lennox finally utilizing his underated left hook he finished off bruno. again a tense struggle.

evander holyfield- very close 2nd fight, holy was 38 and looked old and battle worn

oliver mccall- knocked out with one punch

hasim rahman- knocked out by one punch

ray mercer- dead even fight, huge struggle against 36 year old mercer. outboxed.



still as you see lennox clearly struggled alot more against top opponents than liston did
Again a nice case of selection bias. Hey! Let's have a look at Liston's fights:

-Marshall: an undersized heavyweight that was never ranked broke the big bear's jaw and won a decision and knocked him down in a rematch.
-Summerlin: Two very close fights, look at how Liston struggled with this man who was only ranked for a very small period of time
-Ali: Liston quit on his stool after 6 rounds of light punishment. In the rematch he either quit, was knocked out or took a dive.
-Martin: The first next contender he fights after Ali knocks him out cold with a single punch.

As you can see, Liston clearly struggled a lot more against top opponents than Lewis did.

See how selection bias works?
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Old 12-07-2007, 07:16 AM   #64
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
liston was 6'0 1/2 rounded up to 6'1. many papers had him listed as 6'1.
And many have him at 6'0.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
bruno fight pretty much even? then im guessing you simply looked at boxrec and didnt watch the fight. bruno badly outboxed lennox for 6 rounds until lennox got smart and unleashed his left hook.
Nope, i've seen the fight. Bruno won 4 of the first 6 rounds at best. Score one round differently and it's even. How is that "badly outboxing" someone? What would you call it if he won 5 or 6 of those rounds?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
yes it tells me valdez took a horrible beating from liston and that he realized he had no shot at the heavyweight title with liston in the picture.


your dodging the fact Sonny Liston beat wayne bethea, Mike Dejohn 2x, Harold Carter, Pat Mccmutry. Since I know that you like to go by "ring rankings" mcmutry was ranked 5th when valdez knocked him out in 1 round, and dejohn was ranked 7th when valdez twice beat him, and wayne bethea was ranked 8th when valdez beat him. all this occured just one year before he fought sonny.
Bethea was a journeyman and he beat DeJohn only once. Carter and McCutry were journeyman too. The type of fighters that beat up a lot of losing records fighters and lose every time when stepping up. I suggest you look at their records; it isn't pretty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Nino Valdez was ranked # 2 entering 1959 the year sonny liston fought him, so whether you think valdez dramatically lost all his abilities in months, its quite clear that valdez was still a big damaging dangerous puncher when he fought liston as evidence by his victories over contenders in a year span window around the time he fought liston.

Ever think he retired after one more fight after liston(in which he knocked out brian london) because liston beat him up so bad he forced valdez into retirement?
Valdes was not ranked in the 1959 rankings, sorry.

And that last argument is just pathetic.
Perhaps i should go say that Lewis beat Holyfield so bad that after that he would lose to Ruiz? Clearly he was on a winning streak going in, including beating Tyson.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
perhaps you dont see it because the fog that wreaks of bias is clouding your vision? I explained to you that valdez was knocking out legite contenders months leading up to the sonny liston bout and entering the beginning of the year was himself ranked # 2. Valdez clearly was still a one of the best punchers in the divsion and had the size(6'3 215lb).
You call Liston's heart even with Lewis and it's my vision that's clouded with bias?

Yeah, Valdes is one of the only guys Liston fought who was 210+lbs. He still wasn't ranked though, contrary to the 17 210+lbs ranked opponents of Lewis. No comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Liston took williams, dejohns, valdez flush punches without blinking. Hell even hard punching floyd patterson hit liston a couple times and liston laughed.
Again you are making stuff up SuzieQ. Liston took Valdes' punches flush without blinking? This one is not even on film!!!
I don't know about the DeJohn one, i've never seen it, is it on film or are you making this up as well?

How about Liston being stunned on film by journeyman Whitehurst, or Listons staggering across the ring from a right hand from Howard King (another journeyman for you)?

Hard punching Patterson?
The man barely has KO's over notable opponents. Moore who was old and a lightheavyweight and Johansson who had a glass jaw to start with.
I'd like to see what happens when Lewis fights a 180lbs "hard punching" guy with no chin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
For what its worth, in the amatuers liston faced 6'4 220lb olympic champion ed sanders and boxed ed sanders ears off for an easy decision, this was liston without world class training beating a huge powerful olympic champion with his jab and natural talent alone. pretty impressive. ed sanders would have been a great pro if not for his shortened career.
Yeah, Ed Sanders would've been great if not for Liston...... sigh...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
lewis style was always flawed, just more so when he fought mccall. it wasnt blind, mccall set him up waiting for him to drop that left after he jabbed.
Have you even seen the fight? Lewis threw a left hook right hand, not a jab. No left hand was ever dropped and McCall got over it. Lewis threw left hook right hand and McCall throw two punches at the same time. From what you say it's painfully obvious you don't know what you're talking about. You're making up a "flaw" based on something that didn't even happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
rahman didnt catch him with a cold punch, lennox backed up into the ropes like a clown with his hands low, he deserved it to get hit like he did.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
He didnt have to outbox them, he knocked them out. ranked and skilled boxers floyd patterson and zora folley fell victim in less than 4 rounds.
Zora Folley has one of the weakest jaws i've ever seen. Ali flattened him with basically the first combination that landed, and he barely sat down on that nor was a hard puncher. Folley vs Liston (or any puncher) is a KO waiting to happen. Dito with Patterson.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
Liston threw a 4 punch combination that had williams head buzzing right before the the first left hook to put him down. you say one at a time, but foreman threw one a time, and he got the job done. Liston mixed it up, ive seen him throw 4-5 punch combinations a number of times while other times he threw clubbing haymaker after haymaker. He hit so damm hard it go the job done. Liston had excellent punching technique. watch the 2nd patterson fight liston puts floyd down with a 4 punch combo.
Sorry but i just never see Liston throw quick combinations like Lewis did against Mercer, Holyfield etc.

By the way, you just stated that Liston was way past his prime when he fuoght Patterson the second time. And now you bring up this great combination that he threw there. You just keep contradicting yourself whenever it suits your argument.
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Old 12-07-2007, 07:40 AM   #65
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

when was Liston ko'd by Marty Marshall?
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Old 12-07-2007, 09:53 AM   #66
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

On Nino Valdes' retirement--I actually remember reading about why he retired back when he retired in 1959. After defeating Brian London, he was scheduled to fight George Chuvalo in Toronto. The routine prefight medical exam revealed that Valdes had cataracts. His boxing license was then suspended for his own protection.
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Old 12-07-2007, 09:58 AM   #67
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
On Nino Valdes' retirement--I actually remember reading about why he retired back when he retired in 1959. After defeating Brian London, he was scheduled to fight George Chuvalo in Toronto. The routine medical exam revealed that Valdes had cataracts. His boxing license was then suspended.
An old Valdez vs George Chuvalo might have been interesting.
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Old 12-07-2007, 10:04 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
An old Valdez vs George Chuvalo might have been interesting.
True. It was a great match. Not worth risking blindness for, though.
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Old 12-07-2007, 11:49 AM   #69
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Oh, and Patterson most certainly isn't better than anyone on Lewis' resume, are you kidding me? Klitschko would beat him down like he did Williams. Tua would knock him out easily. Well, i can go on, but the list is too long. If you think a 180lbs heavyweight with no chin and average power can beat those, than you are really stretching things.
this clearly shows your bias for 1990s fighters. patterson is an ATG heavyweight, vitali klitschko is an unproven quitter whos quit job against a cruiserweight made listons quit job against ali look like a gatti like exit.


Vitali klitschko is the most overated heavyweight of all time. how could you pick a unproven fighter like him over an ATG? the one fight he had with a man around pattersons size, he LOST. this was too a far lesser talented fighter than patterson(chris bryd).

Patterson had more boxing skill in his little finger, than vitali did in his whole body. patterson's handspeed/boxingskill would be way too much for vitali, he would outpoint vitali comfortably. vitali didnt have the punching/finishing skills and accuracy to break through pattersons peek a boo and finish him off.



david tua? the man who was outboxed easily by almost every contender he faced? cruiserweight chris bryd boxed his ears off, maskaev, raham, izon, oquendo all boxed his ears off. I give tua more of a chance than vitali in a fight vs patterson though, and patterson will have to be really careful he doesnt get caught by tua late. but patterson was alot smarter than all these fighters who allowed themselves to be caught late by tua, I see patterson outboxing him the whole fight and playing it smart in the late rounds. Patterson DID have the power to back tua up, and his combinations would throw tua off target all night.


patterson had a better chin than you think and even if he didnt, his boxing skills handspeed defense power were too much for a fighter like tua.
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Old 12-07-2007, 12:07 PM   #70
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
this clearly shows your bias for 1990s fighters. patterson is an ATG heavyweight, vitali klitschko is an unproven quitter whos quit job against a cruiserweight made listons quit job against ali look like a gatti like exit.
I know this little debate is between you and Chris, but I think I'll chime in on a few points here.
Vitali Klitschko had a legitimate reason for resigning. He had a torn rotator cuff. I've often heard you mention that you are a wrestler. When I wrestled in highschool, there were a few guys who suffered such an injury. It makes it very difficult to perform, given that you pretty much lose the use of that arm. I also don't think that his resigning was inspired by anything Chris Byrd did, especially because Vitali was winning that fight pretty handedly.


Quote:
Vitali klitschko is the most overated heavyweight of all time. how could you pick a unproven fighter like him over an ATG? the one fight he had with a man around pattersons size, he LOST. this was too a far lesser talented fighter than patterson(chris bryd).
I don't think V. Klit, is very overrated. In fact, he has already been forgotten by most people. Anyway, I think Chris's point is that he was probably a more dangerous opponent from a head to head standpoint, given his size, power and chin.

Quote:
Patterson had more boxing skill in his little finger, than vitali did in his whole body. patterson's handspeed/boxingskill would be way too much for vitali, he would outpoint vitali comfortably. vitali didnt have the punching/finishing skills and accuracy to break through pattersons peek a boo and finish him off.

This is highly speculative. patterson was a great fighter, and one of my favorites, but we can't ignore that he was knocked out in the peak of his prime by Ingemar Johansen. Ingo was a good fighter to, but I can't deem him as being a more dangerous puncher than Vitali klitschko.

Quote:
david tua? the man who was outboxed easily by almost every contender he faced? cruiserweight chris bryd boxed his ears off, maskaev, raham, izon, oquendo all boxed his ears off. I give tua more of a chance than vitali in a fight vs patterson though, and patterson will have to be really careful he doesnt get caught by tua late. but patterson was alot smarter than all these fighters who allowed themselves to be caught late by tua, I see patterson outboxing him the whole fight and playing it smart in the late rounds. Patterson DID have the power to back tua up, and his combinations would throw tua off target all night.
patterson may have had better skills than some of the men you mentioned, but unfortunately, he probably didn't have the physical tools needed to compliment his abilities. As much respect as I have for Floyd Patterson, I don't think that he'd be very successful against a lot of top contenders of the 90's, due to his physical limitations. Again, I'm not questioning his boxing ability.

Last edited by mr. magoo; 12-07-2007 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:27 PM   #71
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i think ingos bingo was alot more deadly, not to mention "tricky" than vitali's best punch.


Mr. Maghoo,

You give fair analysis regarding patterson, and its something we will just have to disagree one. Patterson filled out to a 195lb rock solid heavyweight at his peak, so he was not that small. He had a frame that could carry even more weight if he were fighting today.
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:40 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
i think ingos bingo was alot more deadly, not to mention "tricky" than vitali's best punch.
Trickier maybe. More powerful, I don't know. Ingo did a good job of polishing off an undefeated Machen in one round, I'll give him that. Kilitschko was a monster though, and he had some 33 Ko's in 34 wins or whatever. He also beat alot of bigger men, which is something we have to at least consider.


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Mr. Maghoo,

You give fair analysis regarding patterson, and its something we will just have to disagree one.
Fair enough, but let me remind you that I'm not in anyway trying to berate Patterson.

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Patterson filled out to a 195lb rock solid heavyweight at his peak, so he was not that small. He had a frame that could carry even more weight if he were fighting today.
No question about it. With modern weight training and nutritional guidelines, Floyd probably could have added on another 10 or 15 Lbs of muscle without any trouble. The problem here, is that we can't speculate what how different he might have been. When drawing comparisions across eras, we have to look at fighters for how they actually were. Although I rate Floyd much higher than say Riddick Bowe on an all time list, I don't think I'd pick him to beat Riddick head to head. From a very realistic standpoint, Patterson would be giving up way too much in size. It also wasn't like Floyd would be in there with a great big tomato can. Bowe was never knocked out in his career, and knocked out many of good fighters. He could also move and some decent boxing ability. When we combine these things with an enormous size advanatage, it tends to go a long way.
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:02 PM   #73
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Kilitschko was a monster though, and he had some 33 Ko's in 34 wins or whatever. He also beat alot of bigger men, which is something we have to at least consider.
lamar clark had 48 KOs out of 49 wins. doesnt mean shit when your knocking out C level fighters in the weakest era in heavyweight history like vitali was doing. perhaps my bias of anti vitali clouds my judgement some time, but you have to admit looking at his accomplishments....he is rather thin in that department compared to other contenders throughout history.


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No question about it. With modern weight training and nutritional guidelines, Floyd probably could have added on another 10 or 15 Lbs of muscle without any trouble. The problem here, is that we can't speculate what how different he might have been. When drawing comparisions across eras, we have to look at fighters for how they actually were. Although I rate Floyd much higher than say Riddick Bowe on an all time list, I don't think I'd pick him to beat Riddick head to head. From a very realistic standpoint, Patterson would be giving up way too much in size. It also wasn't like Floyd would be in there with a great big tomato can. Bowe was never knocked out in his career, and knocked out many of good fighters. He could also move and some decent boxing ability. When we combine these things with an enormous size advanatage, it tends to go a long way.

I agree on this
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:13 PM   #74
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lamar clark had 48 KOs out of 49 wins. doesnt mean shit when your knocking out C level fighters in the weakest era in heavyweight history like vitali was doing. perhaps my bias of anti vitali clouds my judgement some time, but you have to admit looking at his accomplishments....he is rather thin in that department compared to other contenders throughout history.
I'm not claiming that the guy had the credentials of Sam Langford or Jerry Quarry. And frankly, I agree that his body of works wasn't all that great. All I'm saying is that he could have very conceivably been a dangerous opponent for a lot of guys in a head to head sense. Let's face it Suzie, the guy was a monster who was built like a mountain. He was never dominated by anyone in his career, including Lewis and Byrd whom he was leading against. He knocked out a lot of guys who were also big heavywieghts and rated at the time. He had a solid chin, and was never TRULEY stopped by anyone, at least not by a conventional knockout. His boxing ability was by no means stellar, but it wasn't terrible either. To think that he might have given some of the smaller heavyweights of the past trouble such as Patterson, Johansen, Marciano, and Frazier, is not a proposterous claim when we look at it honestly.
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Old 12-07-2007, 05:02 PM   #75
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Default Re: Sonny Liston vs Lennox Lewis

Sonny Liston had one of the best jabs in heavyweight history. Who knows if his two fights with Ali were controlled by the mob as some boxing historians conclude. Sure, Ali beat him twice but I find it hard to believe that Liston couldn't get up from that right hand that Ali landed. IMO, Liston took a dive in the second fight because maybe his life was on the line.

I used to criticize Lennox Lewis partly because of his performances against Oliver McCall, Hasim Rahman and Vladimir Klitschko. Also, Lewis was getting his butt whupped by Frank Bruno for six rounds and Shannon Briggs didn't know how to pace himself. Lewis has only won my favour over the last part of his career because he became more of a gentleman of the sport. He called himself a "pugilistic specialist" and I appreciate the fact that he's an athletic big man that can box. Rarely does Lewis try to Foremanize his opponent by trying to blast him out early, even though his right hand should be ranked high on the power scale, next to Shavers, Foreman and Tyson. Lewis prefers to beat his opponents by making them stop punching meanwhile he gets criticized for not having the killer instinct and knockout finishing skills.

As for the fight itself, I think Liston would knock Lewis out in the middle rounds and finish him unlike Frank Bruno. If Lennox comes to fight in his best shape, I think he could probably out box Liston and keep him on the outside easy with his jab.
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