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Old 07-18-2011, 12:37 PM   #1
shommel
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Default what would have happened if........

cerdan didnt hurt his shoulder in the first round against lamotta?who would have won how and why?how would the fight have went?
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Old 07-18-2011, 12:49 PM   #2
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Default Re: what would have happened if........

LaMotta was too strong for Cerdan.
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Old 07-18-2011, 01:40 PM   #3
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Default Re: what would have happened if........

Could have gone either way. At the moment I'm 60/40 for the Bronx Bull.
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:29 PM   #4
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Default Re: what would have happened if........

I think LaMotta still would have beaten him. No matter how severe the shoulder injury was, no man would get that badly beaten unless there was some gap in greatness.
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Old 07-18-2011, 04:32 PM   #5
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Default Re: what would have happened if........

A one-armed Cerdan made it past the halfway point. A two-armed one makes it all the way, maybe even winning the decision.

People here cite LaMotta's strength but if that was such a factor then Jake should have lost very few fights in his career(he was stronger than practically everyone!). As it stands why did so many WELTERWEIGHTS go hammer and tongs with him? Surely he was far stronger than they.
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Old 07-18-2011, 05:19 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surf-Bat View Post
A one-armed Cerdan made it past the halfway point. A two-armed one makes it all the way, maybe even winning the decision.

People here cite LaMotta's strength but if that was such a factor then Jake should have lost very few fights in his career(he was stronger than practically everyone!). As it stands why did so many WELTERWEIGHTS go hammer and tongs with him? Surely he was far stronger than they.
Cerdan was hardly a fleet-footed boxer though, was he? He met opponents head on, and in LaMotta he faced a bigger, stronger man who was excellent at in-fighting. Cerdan was man-handled in the first round, and it only got worse as the fight went on.

LaMotta also injured his hand in this fight but you did not see him complaining.
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Old 07-18-2011, 05:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surf-Bat View Post
A one-armed Cerdan made it past the halfway point. A two-armed one makes it all the way, maybe even winning the decision.

People here cite LaMotta's strength but if that was such a factor then Jake should have lost very few fights in his career(he was stronger than practically everyone!). As it stands why did so many WELTERWEIGHTS go hammer and tongs with him? Surely he was far stronger than they.
I agree with your view. If Cerdan's shoulder injury was valid,and he was in pain,how should he be expected to beat LaMotta or any top-notch middleweight in a gruelling fight ? I have a shoulder injury and at times I can hardly extend my hand as the pain is so severe. The first fight with Cerdan/LaMotta really proved nothing,that is why there was the rematch,which never occured, as LaMotta claimed an injury and postponement, leading to the second date in which Cerdan's fatal air crash
over the Azores Oct 27,1949,occured.
I saw Cerdan/Georgie Abrams fight at MSG, and we in the audience was impressed with both Cerdan and the difficult to beat Abrams.
Yes Jake LaMotta was very strong,but so was Cerdan. An acquaintance of mine Harold Green, was stopped by Cerdan in 2 rounds in 1947. About a day after the fight Green told a few of us, that after the first clinch in the first round,Green felt the strength of Cerdan and knew he had no chance to win.Yes Welterweights as Fritzie Zivic won a decision over LaMotta.And because of style,I can't see Fritzie Zivic at 147 lbs,coping with the bigger
aggressive and healthy Cerdan. At their bests, I make Cerdan/LaMotta, pick em...
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Old 07-18-2011, 07:17 PM   #8
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Cerdan was hardly a fleet-footed boxer though, was he? He met opponents head on, and in LaMotta he faced a bigger, stronger man who was excellent at in-fighting. Cerdan was man-handled in the first round, and it only got worse as the fight went on.

LaMotta also injured his hand in this fight but you did not see him complaining.
That's because he was still able to USE his hand, as the existing films clearly show (and the primary source newspapers, which I have posted before, concur was the case throughout- a one armed fighter vs a two armed fighter).

I hear what you're saying but remember that Fritzie Zivic and Tony Janiro weren't fleet-footed either. Yet neither man was snowed under by LaMott'as huge "strength" advantage and both were standing at the final bell. These were welters, btw. So how is LaMotta's strength going to be such an issue with a healthy, two armed middleweight champion like Marcel Cerdan?

Jake could possibly win the fight, but I definitely don't think the evidence of LaMotta's career points to his strength being the deciding factor. Not when welters are going toe to toe with you, surviving and in some cases even beating you. Zivic was no dancemaster.
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Old 07-18-2011, 07:45 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Surf-Bat View Post
That's because he was still able to USE his hand, as the existing films clearly show (and the primary source newspapers, which I have posted before, concur was the case throughout- a one armed fighter vs a two armed fighter).

I hear what you're saying but remember that Fritzie Zivic and Tony Janiro weren't fleet-footed either. Yet neither man was snowed under by LaMott'as huge "strength" advantage and both were standing at the final bell. These were welters, btw. So how is LaMotta's strength going to be such an issue with a healthy, two armed middleweight champion like Marcel Cerdan?

Jake could possibly win the fight, but I definitely don't think the evidence of LaMotta's career points to his strength being the deciding factor. Not when welters are going toe to toe with you, surviving and in some cases even beating you. Zivic was no dancemaster.
Janiro was a boxer and he was knocked out at the final bell against a drained LaMotta who beat him severely. Zivic was a master matador when facing pressure fighters. He even gave Billy Conn hell at middleweight.

LaMotta's strength was an issue with a healthy, two-armed Marcel Cerdan as seen in the first round where he was beaten up and tossed around. It's just extremely difficult to stand with Jake, and not get overwhelmed.
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Old 07-18-2011, 08:50 PM   #10
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Default Re: what would have happened if........

[quote=TheGreatA;10222446]Janiro was a boxer and he was knocked out at the final bell against a drained LaMotta who beat him severely.

He was a mere welterweight who slugged it out with LaMotta and went the distance with him. Read the last two paragraphs:

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Zivic was a master matador when facing pressure fighters. He even gave Billy Conn hell at middleweight.

He was still a welterweight and was right there in front of Jake and his "strength" the whole time. If his strength was such a factor then he should have overwhelmed and knocked-out every welterweight he faced, yes?

LaMotta's strength was an issue with a healthy, two-armed Marcel Cerdan as seen in the first round where he was beaten up and tossed around.

Or maybe it was just the element of surprise (Jake surprised everyone with how he came out that night). But Rocky Marciano was beaten up and tossed around worse by Walcott in the beginning of their fight too. Floored in fact (he certainly looked worse than Cerdan did).Does it tell the story of the rest of their fight? No. Not remotely.


It's just extremely difficult to stand with Jake, and not get overwhelmed.

Lots of guys did it. Even welterweights.
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Old 07-19-2011, 07:24 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surf-Bat View Post
He was a mere welterweight who slugged it out with LaMotta and went the distance with him. Read the last two paragraphs:

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[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRuoilovR0Y[/ame]


His style seems like that of a boxer's, not a slugger. I'm sure LaMotta forced him to brawl though because he was difficult to keep off without firepower.

Marcel Cerdan was also a former welterweight.

Quote:
He was still a welterweight and was right there in front of Jake and his "strength" the whole time. If his strength was such a factor then he should have overwhelmed and knocked-out every welterweight he faced, yes?
Zivic had the maneuvers to counter-act this strength, like a Roberto Duran, and he was also a back-pedaling boxer looking to counter, with numerous crafty moves in the clinches. And LaMotta's strength and size still won out in their series.

Quote:
Or maybe it was just the element of surprise (Jake surprised everyone with how he came out that night). But Rocky Marciano was beaten up and tossed around worse by Walcott in the beginning of their fight too. Floored in fact (he certainly looked worse than Cerdan did).Does it tell the story of the rest of their fight? No. Not remotely.
In most fights I've seen of LaMotta he came out like a bull rushing out of the gates. Especially against Cerdan considering that he was fighting for the world title.

Walcott was strong and he had stunned Marciano with a big punch. I find it very unlikely that Cerdan comes back to KO LaMotta with a right hand bomb after getting outpointed for 12 rounds. Marciano had almost no vision for several rounds, yet he was able to win.

Quote:
Lots of guys did it. Even welterweights.
Which of them went toe-to-toe like Marcel Cerdan did? Bringing up Janiro and Zivic, the former beaten to a pulp by LaMotta and KO'd at the final bell, and Zivic who is known as a master matador in "taming" the bulls, is not enough to convince me that LaMotta's greater strength, which he used to maneuver Cerdan however he wanted in their match, was not a factor.[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZjTs7u8zSI"][/ame]

A lot of times when two "bulls" collide, the bigger, stronger bull wins as was the case in LaMotta-Cerdan.
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Old 07-19-2011, 02:42 PM   #12
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[quote=TheGreatA;10225572][ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRuoilovR0Y[/ame]


His style seems like that of a boxer's, not a slugger. I'm sure LaMotta forced him to brawl though because he was difficult to keep off without firepower.

My point exactly. A little welterweight went toe to toe with LaMotta and heard the final bell, whether he was almost KO'd at the final bell or not is not relevant. If Jake's strength were such a factor then he should have overwhelmed this guy and stopped him before the 10 rounds were up. He didn't.


Marcel Cerdan was also a former welterweight.

Yes, a former welterweight. Janiro was, for all intents and purposes, still a welterweight. He weighed just a couple pounds over the limit and had never fought a middleweight of note up to this point, let alone beaten one.

I would pick Marcel Cerdan to knock Janiro out.

Zivic had the maneuvers to counter-act this strength, like a Roberto Duran, and he was also a back-pedaling boxer looking to counter, with numerous crafty moves in the clinches.

This further illustrates the point I'm trying to make. If a little welter's crafty moves can stymie this big strong middleweight's strength, what does that tell us about the strength factor?

And as crafty as Zivic was, at the end of the day he was still a give and take mixer who fought in the danger zone, not some fleet-footed boxer who danced away from danger for 10-15 rounds. He was pretty much in LaMotta's face.


And LaMotta's strength and size still won out in their series.

On paper it appears that way. But that isn't really the story of their series when one looks at it closer, is it? A controversial and widely booed split decision win for Jake. Another split decision for Jake. A split decision win for Zivic. A close win for LaMotta with Zivic fighting with a damaged hand.

LaMotta was hardly dominant in their series. Zivic gave him all he wanted and more. If his strength couldn't see him through to overwhelming welterweights who engaged him in the trenches then how would have been such a factor in a fight with a strong, healthy, two armed MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION like Marcel Cerdan?

I'm not suggesting Jake couldn't win that fight. I just don't think that pointing to his strength as the ultimate factor is a good argument. Strength alone doesn't win you fights. It helps to have a strong punch to back it up with. LaMotta didn't have a strong punch. Ask Zivic: "If LaMotta hit a fly I'd give you 3-1 odds that the fly would get up and hit back"

Remember, this is a welterweight talking.

Walcott was strong and he had stunned Marciano with a big punch. I find it very unlikely that Cerdan comes back to KO LaMotta with a right hand bomb after getting outpointed for 12 rounds.

The point is that one round of a fight does not determine the ultimate outcome. Walcott hurt, floored and tossed Rocky around like a ragdoll. Surely the Rock got it worse in that round than Cerdan did LaMotta. So if Rocky can do that is it totally inconceivable that Cerdan, had he had two working arms, could have outboxed and outpunched LaMotta and copped a decision?

Which of them went toe-to-toe like Marcel Cerdan did?

Tony Janiro and Fritzie Zivic

Bringing up Janiro and Zivic, the former beaten to a pulp by LaMotta and KO'd at the final bell,

If LaMotta's strength was the factor you seem to indicate it was then Janiro should have never heard the final bell. He was a good but scrawny welterweight contender. Cerdan was a strong middleweight champion. Big difference.


and Zivic who is known as a master matador in "taming" the bulls,

Little bulls like Sammy Angott and Henry Armstrong perhaps. He wasn't able to tame bulls like Beau Jack or Bob Montgomery. In fact he lost to Beau Jack twice just a few months before beating LaMotta and holding him to a close split decision. He lost to Montgomery that year too.

Effective yes, but I wouldn't say "master". And he definitely had no business beating LaMotta and giving him so much trouble if Jake was the overwhelming force he is being claimed here to be.

A lot of times when two "bulls" collide, the bigger, stronger bull wins as was the case in LaMotta-Cerdan.

Especially when one bull is fighting with two horns and the other only has one. Yet STILL takes the two-horned bull past 9 rounds. That's one helluva one-horned bull!
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Old 07-19-2011, 03:00 PM   #13
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[quote=Surf-Bat;10228575]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatA View Post
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His style seems like that of a boxer's, not a slugger. I'm sure LaMotta forced him to brawl though because he was difficult to keep off without firepower.

My point exactly. A little welterweight went toe to toe with LaMotta and heard the final bell, whether he was almost KO'd at the final bell or not is not relevant. If Jake's strength were such a factor then he should have overwhelmed this guy and stopped him before the 10 rounds were up. He didn't.


Marcel Cerdan was also a former welterweight.

Yes, a former welterweight. Janiro was, for all intents and purposes, still a welterweight. He weighed just a couple pounds over the limit and had never fought a middleweight of note up to this point, let alone beaten one.

I would pick Marcel Cerdan to knock Janiro out.

Zivic had the maneuvers to counter-act this strength, like a Roberto Duran, and he was also a back-pedaling boxer looking to counter, with numerous crafty moves in the clinches.

This further illustrates the point I'm trying to make. If a little welter's crafty moves can stymie this big strong middleweight's strength, what does that tell us about the strength factor?

And as crafty as Zivic was, at the end of the day he was still a give and take mixer who fought in the danger zone, not some fleet-footed boxer who danced away from danger for 10-15 rounds. He was pretty much in LaMotta's face.


And LaMotta's strength and size still won out in their series.

On paper it appears that way. But that isn't really the story of their series when one looks at it closer, is it? A controversial and widely booed split decision win for Jake. Another split decision for Jake. A split decision win for Zivic. A close win for LaMotta with Zivic fighting with a damaged hand.

LaMotta was hardly dominant in their series. Zivic gave him all he wanted and more. If his strength couldn't see him through to overwhelming welterweights who engaged him in the trenches then how would have been such a factor in a fight with a strong, healthy, two armed MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION like Marcel Cerdan?

I'm not suggesting Jake couldn't win that fight. I just don't think that pointing to his strength as the ultimate factor is a good argument. Strength alone doesn't win you fights. It helps to have a strong punch to back it up with. LaMotta didn't have a strong punch. Ask Zivic: "If LaMotta hit a fly I'd give you 3-1 odds that the fly would get up and hit back"

Remember, this is a welterweight talking.

Walcott was strong and he had stunned Marciano with a big punch. I find it very unlikely that Cerdan comes back to KO LaMotta with a right hand bomb after getting outpointed for 12 rounds.

The point is that one round of a fight does not determine the ultimate outcome. Walcott hurt, floored and tossed Rocky around like a ragdoll. Surely the Rock got it worse in that round than Cerdan did LaMotta. So if Rocky can do that is it totally inconceivable that Cerdan, had he had two working arms, could have outboxed and outpunched LaMotta and copped a decision?

Which of them went toe-to-toe like Marcel Cerdan did?

Tony Janiro and Fritzie Zivic

Bringing up Janiro and Zivic, the former beaten to a pulp by LaMotta and KO'd at the final bell,

If LaMotta's strength was the factor you seem to indicate it was then Janiro should have never heard the final bell. He was a good but scrawny welterweight contender. Cerdan was a strong middleweight champion. Big difference.


and Zivic who is known as a master matador in "taming" the bulls,

Little bulls like Sammy Angott and Henry Armstrong perhaps. He wasn't able to tame bulls like Beau Jack or Bob Montgomery. In fact he lost to Beau Jack twice just a few months before beating LaMotta and holding him to a close split decision. He lost to Montgomery that year too.

Effective yes, but I wouldn't say "master". And he definitely had no business beating LaMotta and giving him so much trouble if Jake was the overwhelming force he is being claimed here to be.

A lot of times when two "bulls" collide, the bigger, stronger bull wins as was the case in LaMotta-Cerdan.

Especially when one bull is fighting with two horns and the other only has one. Yet STILL takes the two-horned bull past 9 rounds. That's one helluva one-horned bull!
Good points about Beau Jack beating Fritzie Zivic twice. Beau Jack was a
non-stop puncher who would OVERWHELM your defenses with every punch in the book. Whereas the bigger stronger LaMotta threw half the punches that Beau Jack threw,allowing the slow footed Zivic to use his wile and
experience to cope with LaMotta's less voluminous attack. The Marcel Cerdan I saw against Georgie Abrams,threw barrages of punches ala the smaller Beau Jack, that enough would land on Fritzie,for Cerdan to whip Zivic easily IMO...It is all the matter of styles...
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Old 07-19-2011, 03:56 PM   #14
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My point exactly. A little welterweight went toe to toe with LaMotta and heard the final bell, whether he was almost KO'd at the final bell or not is not relevant. If Jake's strength were such a factor then he should have overwhelmed this guy and stopped him before the 10 rounds were up. He didn't.
It's relevant and you were saying that he was "standing" at the final bell which I corrected as Janiro was actually flat on his back at the end of the fight. LaMotta's strength was a huge factor in this fight, and don't confuse strength with power here. LaMotta was not of course a huge puncher, but he used his strength to bully and rough up his opponents, which he was able to do successfully to Janiro, and to Marcel Cerdan too.

Quote:
Yes, a former welterweight. Janiro was, for all intents and purposes, still a welterweight. He weighed just a couple pounds over the limit and had never fought a middleweight of note up to this point, let alone beaten one.
He gave Graziano a plenty of trouble. I just don't see the relevancy of this example. Janiro got beat up and hung in tough, even some of the biggest punchers of all time haven't been able to score knockouts at times. But by no means did Janiro fight LaMotta on even terms.

Quote:
I would pick Marcel Cerdan to knock Janiro out.
Possibly although Janiro would be one of Cerdan's better opponents.

Quote:
This further illustrates the point I'm trying to make. If a little welter's crafty moves can stymie this big strong middleweight's strength, what does that tell us about the strength factor?

And as crafty as Zivic was, at the end of the day he was still a give and take mixer who fought in the danger zone, not some fleet-footed boxer who danced away from danger for 10-15 rounds. He was pretty much in LaMotta's face.
The strength factor can be nullified by a clever enough fighter, but I do not believe that Cerdan had the ability to do this. He usually overwhelmed opponents with his own strength. Fighting a stronger opponent was a relevation to him.


Quote:
On paper it appears that way. But that isn't really the story of their series when one looks at it closer, is it? A controversial and widely booed split decision win for Jake. Another split decision for Jake. A split decision win for Zivic. A close win for LaMotta with Zivic fighting with a damaged hand.

LaMotta was hardly dominant in their series. Zivic gave him all he wanted and more. If his strength couldn't see him through to overwhelming welterweights who engaged him in the trenches then how would have been such a factor in a fight with a strong, healthy, two armed MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION like Marcel Cerdan?

I'm not suggesting Jake couldn't win that fight. I just don't think that pointing to his strength as the ultimate factor is a good argument. Strength alone doesn't win you fights. It helps to have a strong punch to back it up with. LaMotta didn't have a strong punch. Ask Zivic: "If LaMotta hit a fly I'd give you 3-1 odds that the fly would get up and hit back"

Remember, this is a welterweight talking.
Zivic was one tough welterweight and hung in there with a Billy Conn at middleweight.

LaMotta's strength was a factor against Cerdan. I don't see how you can just ignore what actually happened in the ring and speculate what could have happened if Cerdan had been 100%. Cerdan got beat up in that first round, and I don't believe it was just a "surprise factor".

Quote:
The point is that one round of a fight does not determine the ultimate outcome. Walcott hurt, floored and tossed Rocky around like a ragdoll. Surely the Rock got it worse in that round than Cerdan did LaMotta. So if Rocky can do that is it totally inconceivable that Cerdan, had he had two working arms, could have outboxed and outpunched LaMotta and copped a decision?
More likely that LaMotta with his greater workrate, strength and in-fighting ability would take it to Cerdan if in prime condition. I do not count out Cerdan's chances in a rematch but with a near 100% LaMotta against a near 100% Cerdan, I take LaMotta. He was bigger, he was stronger, he was younger (Cerdan was nearly 33 at the time of the LaMotta fight), he fought a better class of opposition, he had great stamina and determination to win the title after years of being on the sidelines. As for common opposition, Cerdan was nearly KO'd by Anton Raadik while LaMotta beat the hell out of him to avenge his brother's loss.
Quote:
Little bulls like Sammy Angott and Henry Armstrong perhaps. He wasn't able to tame bulls like Beau Jack or Bob Montgomery. In fact he lost to Beau Jack twice just a few months before beating LaMotta and holding him to a close split decision. He lost to Montgomery that year too.
He lost close decisions to Beau Jack (one by a margin of a point deduction) and the difference was that Jack had good handspeed. Often you struggle more with the smaller, faster opponents than the bigger, slower men.

Quote:
Effective yes, but I wouldn't say "master". And he definitely had no business beating LaMotta and giving him so much trouble if Jake was the overwhelming force he is being claimed here to be.
LaMotta was young and strong but he was not nearly as experienced or crafty as Zivic. He learned a lot from those fights, everyone who ever fought Zivic did.
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