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Old 07-19-2011, 09:49 AM   #1
shommel
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Default Lamotta question...

jake lamotta one of the toughest men to ever step into the ring completely fearless of no man of any size. the uncrowned middleweight champ for 3 or 4 years ,no one would fight him so he took on the murderers row guys just so he could eat. my question is why no Lamotta vs Burley? would have been a great draw yet never happened why? if it had happened what would the outcome have been?
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Old 07-19-2011, 01:37 PM   #2
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Default Re: Lamotta question...

When Jake wasn't competing in New York (where he boxed almost exclusively until 1943), he was operating in Boston, Detroit, Chicago, or other northeastern venues typically, usually big city environs.

Charley, when he wasn't confined to western Pennsylvania, would go to New Orleans, Minneapolis, or hang out in California (a state Jake never boxed in). It's almost as if they divided the country between themselves and agreed to respect the turf of the other.

To properly build up a showdown, a local following is best established for both potential rivals first. But LaMotta and Burley were never close to ships passing in the night, it's as if they were in different oceans in separate hemispheres. When Jake did finally venture to Pittsburgh for back to back clashes with Filthy Fritzie, Burley was in California, helping manufacture aircraft for the war effort between bouts.

If the key to success is "location, location, location," then Bronx native LaMotta had it all over Pittsburgher Burley, who came to NYC exactly once, and then to St. Nick's for a first round knockout of an over matched victim, not MSG for a significant challenge.

As to what would have happened if they did ever clash, Jake would have taken the initiative, by-passed Charley's head radar, and opted directly for a body attack. This one goes the distance, a scenario where both had their share of losses. Burley was an efficient boxer with an economic work rate, but southpaws Bert Lytell and Jimmy Leto defeated Charley, and LaMotta was known to switch hit. The rematch loss to Lytell is particularly troubling to me, as it came when Burley was still 29 years of age, and a veteran of 89 fights. Bert is described as having "pushed Burley all over the ring," and as having "puzzled Burley with his left handed style." What's going to happen if Jake springs a switch on him? (There's footage of him doing this with Bob Murphy and in amateur Diamond Belt competition among the very limited films we have of Jake. We have no idea how often he did this in practice, but the Murphy rematch suggests he could apply it with strategic restraint at crucial moments.)

Putting money on a single match would be foolhardy. I'm not convinced I would hazard a guess on a series of three either, except to say that there would not be a 3-0 sweep by either.
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:06 AM   #3
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Default Re: Lamotta question...

could you u tube or post the lamotta diamond belt footage please or id like to but the dvd.
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:31 AM   #4
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Default Re: Lamotta question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum View Post
When Jake wasn't competing in New York (where he boxed almost exclusively until 1943), he was operating in Boston, Detroit, Chicago, or other northeastern venues typically, usually big city environs.

Charley, when he wasn't confined to western Pennsylvania, would go to New Orleans, Minneapolis, or hang out in California (a state Jake never boxed in). It's almost as if they divided the country between themselves and agreed to respect the turf of the other.

To properly build up a showdown, a local following is best established for both potential rivals first. But LaMotta and Burley were never close to ships passing in the night, it's as if they were in different oceans in separate hemispheres. When Jake did finally venture to Pittsburgh for back to back clashes with Filthy Fritzie, Burley was in California, helping manufacture aircraft for the war effort between bouts.

If the key to success is "location, location, location," then Bronx native LaMotta had it all over Pittsburgher Burley, who came to NYC exactly once, and then to St. Nick's for a first round knockout of an over matched victim, not MSG for a significant challenge.

As to what would have happened if they did ever clash, Jake would have taken the initiative, by-passed Charley's head radar, and opted directly for a body attack. This one goes the distance, a scenario where both had their share of losses. Burley was an efficient boxer with an economic work rate, but southpaws Bert Lytell and Jimmy Leto defeated Charley, and LaMotta was known to switch hit. The rematch loss to Lytell is particularly troubling to me, as it came when Burley was still 29 years of age, and a veteran of 89 fights. Bert is described as having "pushed Burley all over the ring," and as having "puzzled Burley with his left handed style." What's going to happen if Jake springs a switch on him? (There's footage of him doing this with Bob Murphy and in amateur Diamond Belt competition among the very limited films we have of Jake. We have no idea how often he did this in practice, but the Murphy rematch suggests he could apply it with strategic restraint at crucial moments.)

Putting money on a single match would be foolhardy. I'm not convinced I would hazard a guess on a series of three either, except to say that there would not be a 3-0 sweep by either.
Lamotta is on record as saying 'why do I need Charles Burley when I can fight Zivic'

Marshall who beat Lamotta clearly basically said Burley would beat him comfortably

Quote:
Originally Posted by shommel View Post
the uncrowned middleweight champ for 3 or 4 years ,no one would fight him so he took on the murderers row guys just so he could eat. my question is why no Lamotta vs Burley? ?
He wasn't really because he was losing to Robinson and Marshall in that time
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:41 AM   #5
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Default Re: Lamotta question...

LaMotta didn't fight the bigger men Burley did, I think it's fair to say Burley was comfortable and even successful with bigger stronger men and this has too factor in the possible outcome.

Burley I believe might have been too cute for LaMotta and he was just as durable giving mixing with the big boys, I think Burley would beat him much more than not!
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:15 PM   #6
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Default Re: LaMotta question...

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Originally Posted by shommel View Post
could you u tube or post the lamotta diamond belt footage please or id like to but the dvd.
Shommel, here's some of that 1939 film. You'll notice that his wildly free swinging early mode of attack is liberally conducted with either foot in the forward position. He looks like a true switch hitter in this half minute clip, not somebody who could be conclusively discerned as orthodox or southpaw from the action here. (In contrast, his foundering opponent does attempt to maintain an orthodox posture as much as his situation will allow.)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkAE9pJ3UEk[/ame]


Here, from 0:17-0:32 is more footage of Jake in Diamond Belt competition. Note how he shifts from orthodox to southpaw at 0:28, stepping forward with his right foot before dropping his pursued and cornered opponent with a crushing overhand left at 0:29:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaVRUNvvl6w[/ame]


In his 1952 rematch with Murphy, he can be seen deliberately stepping forward into a controlled southpaw stance in the closing moments of the final round, and maintaining it for ten seconds before switching back. Commencing his southpaw attack with a double right jab, I have to say he looks very comfortable and natural in that position, it does confuse southpaw Murphy, and the four left crosses Jake drives through in those ten seconds look sharp, straight and effective.

7:05-7:15:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg5Cgcmb4oc[/ame]
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