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Old 07-21-2011, 09:01 AM   #46
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Default Re: The lightweight division is there for Mitchell’s taking!

He'd probably beat Demarco IMO, who really isn't that good either. In fact, I reckon he's rated only because Valero beat him, and people like to act like he was better than he actually was.
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Old 07-21-2011, 09:03 AM   #47
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Default Re: The lightweight division is there for Mitchell’s taking!

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I just struggle to see Kevin even beating those guys due to his stylistic flaws. He’s not really a boxer and he can’t help get involved. Even the weaker guys at 135 will see nothing to worry about from his fight with Murray.
Of course, I merely meant that, in order for him to prove he has any hope of getting anywhere close to the top of the division, those are the kind of fighters you have to beat. If you want to be mentioned alongside Acosta, Katsidis, Vazquez, etc, you've got to beat some kind of relatively decent class of fighter, just as they did. You don't get in amongst them by beating John Murray, nor do you do it by simply signing to fight them. If he's going to gain some success, you've got to face and defeat a decent caliber of opponent, which is why he should fight them, whether he's going to win or not.
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Old 07-21-2011, 09:06 AM   #48
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Default Re: The lightweight division is there for Mitchell’s taking!

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Of course, I merely meant that, in order for him to prove he has any hope of getting anywhere close to the top of the division, those are the kind of fighters you have to beat. If you want to be mentioned alongside Acosta, Katsidis, Vazquez, etc, you've got to beat some kind of relatively decent class of fighter, just as they did. You don't get in amongst them by beating John Murray, nor do you do it by simply signing to fight them. If he's going to gain some success, you've got to face and defeat a decent caliber of opponent, which is why he should fight them, whether he's going to win or not.
Which is funny considering The Ring have promoted Mitchell to number five on the back of beating Murray. ****, I’m not even sure why Murray was at four, and I really like both guys.
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Old 07-21-2011, 09:12 AM   #49
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Default Re: The lightweight division is there for Mitchell’s taking!

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Of course, I merely meant that, in order for him to prove he has any hope of getting anywhere close to the top of the division, those are the kind of fighters you have to beat. If you want to be mentioned alongside Acosta, Katsidis, Vazquez, etc, you've got to beat some kind of relatively decent class of fighter, just as they did. You don't get in amongst them by beating John Murray, nor do you do it by simply signing to fight them. If he's going to gain some success, you've got to face and defeat a decent caliber of opponent, which is why he should fight them, whether he's going to win or not.
I kinda agree with this. While John Murray was rated 4th by the ring, he was never really the 4th best LW on the planet, far from it. Nonetheless, the majority were picking Murray not only to beat Mitchell, but to knock him out. After a 14 month lay off, Mitchell put in a very good performance to knock the bigger man out (a feat in itself, but 1 which i predicted a while back ). I dont think he is ready for the elite guys yet. He needs to be busy.

I think he should fight for the vaccant European, and like Flea said, move on to DeMarco who really isnt THAT good. Should he come through, a fight with Antillon could be a steing stone to the Acostas', Vazquezs' etc.

I ould probably hold off the Katsidis fight for the time being
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Old 07-21-2011, 09:31 AM   #50
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Default Re: The lightweight division is there for Mitchell’s taking!

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I know I'm probably Acosta's biggest scrotum-hanger on this entire forum, but I don't think I'm being biased when I say Mitchell doesn't really have a hope against him, under the assumption that Rios didn't take a significant chunk out of Aguacerito of course, which is a very possible outcome considering Miguel is a 33 year old lightweight. But we can't just assume he's ruined, 'only as good as your last fight' and all that jazz.

Y'see, people tend to think the only world class facet to Acosta's game is his counter punching, which is what he did against both Rios and Antillon, but he can pressure like an absolute mother****er. Watch him against Paulus Moses(who, incidentally, I'd take to out box Mitchell), against a fighter with similarly fast hands and a very good jab, he knew he could box with him, but the easier route would be to break him down and close him off. He pressured so intelliently, crouched down to make the target smaller, hands held high with plenty of bobbing and weaving, he was able to manuver Moses to the ropes and then tee off with excellent combinations high and low. Unlike Murray did, he wouldn't neglect the body and try to load up on one shot, he was battering the body and then coming up and jolting him to the head. He did that for six rounds straight against a relatively proven champion, broke his heart, and stopped him in six.

My fear for Mitchell if he steps it up to world level is his footwork. If Murray's wasn't even worse, Kevin would've found himself in a world of trouble. He circles far too wide, which wears you out over the course of the fight, and often backtracks straight to the ropes. Now, he got away with that for the most part against Murray, because he was coming at Mitchell in straight lines, just following him around the ring. If Murray knew how to cut the ring off, he wouldn't have tired himself out to the extent that he did, and wouldn't have been as predictable and allowed Mitchell the opportunity to put him away.

The trio of Acosta, Katsidis and Vazquez don't do that. Acosta cuts the ring off and circles(the only time we didn't see that was in the later going against Rios, who forced him into it with his physicality as opposed to Miguel doing it himself) tightly around the opponent, I think he's a better boxer than Mitchell and could beat him by way of being aggressive and swarming him. We've already seen what Katsidis can do to him, if he makes him back himself to the ropes, which he does as a regular occuracne, he'll find himself pasted up against the ropes yet again. I'd give him more of a chance against Vazquez, who obviously lacks the variety of Acosta and the tenaciousness of Katsidis, but even still he'd probably force Mitchell to come to him, pick him off with the jab and hold him close whenever Mitchell manages to get close enough to do damage to him. Vazquez is smarter than people give him credit for as much as anything else, and I don't think Mitchell's ring IQ is particularly good, never mind on Vazquez' level.

For me, he's got to take on some frige contenders before he tries to propel himself anywhere near the pinnacle of the division. The likes of DeMarco, Zappavinga and Escobedo are all the kind of appropriate opposition as of now for him. Maybe even Moses? He's started the comeback trail and it'll be good to match two guys who've recently lost to the guys at the top, a real winner takes all clash.
I am not dismissing your opinion but people love talking about bloody footwork don't they. Loom at Pacquiaos footwork its ****ing shocking, he is still one of the best fighters ever.
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Old 07-21-2011, 09:32 AM   #51
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Default Re: The lightweight division is there for Mitchell’s taking!

To be fair DFTaylor you were saying these things last week as to why kevin would lose the fight?
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Old 07-21-2011, 09:40 AM   #52
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Default Re: The lightweight division is there for Mitchell’s taking!

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I am not dismissing your opinion but people love talking about bloody footwork don't they. Loom at Pacquiaos footwork its ****ing shocking, he is still one of the best fighters ever.
Are you serious, Pacquiao has some of the best footwork in boxing today?
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Old 07-21-2011, 10:11 AM   #53
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Default Re: The lightweight division is there for Mitchell’s taking!

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To be fair DFTaylor you were saying these things last week as to why kevin would lose the fight?
Because they’re still true, Rob. I said in all my posts that I felt it would be a close fight, which it was. I was right about all the things that made it a close fight – Mitchell’s tendency to get involved and his fast hands, Murray’s poor defence and his respectable timing.

Murray’s about the same level as Mitchell. There wasn’t much in it until the seventh – it was a pretty even fight. Mitchell took over more because of Murray’s predictability than his own astute tactics – which were appalling, basically get leathered on the ropes and then hope he’s worn himself out.

Saying that 135 is there for the taking with the amount of classy operators out there is ridiculous. Especially when it’s based on similar tactics – hope all the big boys run away so Kevin can install himself as a totally un-noteworthy champion.

I like Kevin and was impressed by how he came back from a fight he wasn’t looking too comfortable in. I thought Murray was going to bully him all the way through the fight and grind out a win. But Mitchell used those fast hands to do damage when it counted – but that doesn’t erase the fact that it was a close fight until that point.

Also, RE: the footwork, people talk about it because it's probably the most important thing in the game. If you can’t get near your opponent then you can’t win fights. If you can’t get away, you can’t win fights.

Pac’s footwork is incredible. He’s always in position to attack, even when he throws punches from angles, he gets in and out of range incredibly quickly, and he’s always balanced. I can’t think of many times I’ve seen him swinging wildy and falling over himself.
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Old 07-21-2011, 10:25 AM   #54
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Default Re: The lightweight division is there for Mitchell’s taking!

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Because they’re still true, Rob. I said in all my posts that I felt it would be a close fight, which it was. I was right about all the things that made it a close fight – Mitchell’s tendency to get involved and his fast hands, Murray’s poor defence and his respectable timing.

Murray’s about the same level as Mitchell. There wasn’t much in it until the seventh – it was a pretty even fight. Mitchell took over more because of Murray’s predictability than his own astute tactics – which were appalling, basically get leathered on the ropes and then hope he’s worn himself out.

Saying that 135 is there for the taking with the amount of classy operators out there is ridiculous. Especially when it’s based on similar tactics – hope all the big boys run away so Kevin can install himself as a totally un-noteworthy champion.

I like Kevin and was impressed by how he came back from a fight he wasn’t looking too comfortable in. I thought Murray was going to bully him all the way through the fight and grind out a win. But Mitchell used those fast hands to do damage when it counted – but that doesn’t erase the fact that it was a close fight until that point.
To be fair that is exactly whats happening though. 3 of the best 4 fighters in Soto, Marquez and Guerero are moving up in there next fights. Rios will follow them next year to. Then you left with guys like Acosts & Katsidis who I agree you favour to beat Kevin but if you time it right you catch them on the way down like Hatton did with Tysuzu. Guys like Antilion & Vasquez are never going to be superstars so theres no reason to fight them.

Get Kevin the vacant WBO. Defend it a few times agaisnt decent but not world class opponents. Build his fanbase up. Fights with Burns & a Murray rematch will do that. Then you have a Kevin Mitchell, brimming with confidence, in his prime, fully adjusted to the lightweight limit and he can go back in with Katsidis.
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Old 07-21-2011, 10:32 AM   #55
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Default Re: The lightweight division is there for Mitchell’s taking!

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I am not dismissing your opinion but people love talking about bloody footwork don't they. Loom at Pacquiaos footwork its ****ing shocking, he is still one of the best fighters ever.
Well, it's because it's relevant. It's a glaring ch1nk in Mitchell's armour, and it's what has restricted him. Better footwork would've enabled him to deal with Murray much easier than he did, it's the reason why he kept getting trapped on the ropes, it wasn't because Murray was forcing him there, it was because he was almost voluntarily moving himself there. If you see him getting ground down and stopped late on in a fight, don't be surprised if it's because he's been moving as wide as he was against both Katsidis and Murray which has lead to him fatiguing himself.

I don't know where you're coming from with regards to Pacquiao's footwork mate, his rapid improvement in that aspect has been imperative in making him he fighter he is today.
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Old 07-21-2011, 10:37 AM   #56
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Default Re: The lightweight division is there for Mitchell’s taking!

I really don't see many fighters other than Marquez & Rios taking Murray out quicker than the 8th round. Soto and Guererro would have just boxed to wide UD's

While the fight was close I don't think there was a point where Kevin wasn't in control.
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Old 07-21-2011, 10:44 AM   #57
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Default Re: The lightweight division is there for Mitchell’s taking!

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I really don't see many fighters other than Marquez & Rios taking Murray out quicker than the 8th round. Soto and Guererro would have just boxed to wide UD's

While the fight was close I don't think there was a point where Kevin wasn't in control.
Soto would brutalise Murray. He’s incredibly adept on the inside and would simply use his superior technical skills to keep Murray turning.

Guerrero chooses to fight safety first, but he can be quite destructive. Keep in mind he’s been flying up the weightclasses, so some of his natural power isn’t there at the higher weight. Either way, Murray wouldn’t get near him so, even if he didn’t stop him, it would be a more impressive, though less exciting, performance.

I don’t see how you could watch that fight and say Mitchell was always in control. He was getting beaten up and looking very uncomfortable at the start of the sixth. That was what made the fight exciting, it was so closely contested while it lasted.
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Old 07-21-2011, 10:56 AM   #58
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Default Re: The lightweight division is there for Mitchell’s taking!

I'm not sure I agree the fight was close until the 7th. I gave Nurray 2 rounds (2nd and 5th I think), and that was at a push. Almost every time Murray had Mitchell on the ropes, Kevin made him miss horribly, hitting him with solid body shots and uppercuts in the process. Murray's game is to get insdie his man and brutalise him, but Kevin completely reversed the tides and was probably getting the better on the inside. When he wanted to box on the back foot, he was doing so. Sure he got caught a few times, and I agree with Jpab in regards to Mitchell's poor footwork, but Kevij was pretty much in control every moment of the fight, bar a solid punch in the second which he took well.
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Old 07-21-2011, 11:00 AM   #59
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Default Re: The lightweight division is there for Mitchell’s taking!

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I'm not sure I agree the fight was close until the 7th. I gave Nurray 2 rounds (2nd and 5th I think), and that was at a push. Almost every time Murray had Mitchell on the ropes, Kevin made him miss horribly, hitting him with solid body shots and uppercuts in the process. Murray's game is to get insdie his man and brutalise him, but Kevin completely reversed the tides and was probably getting the better on the inside. When he wanted to box on the back foot, he was doing so. Sure he got caught a few times, and I agree with Jpab in regards to Mitchell's poor footwork, but Kevij was pretty much in control every moment of the fight, bar a solid punch in the second which he took well.
Mate I am pretty bias towards Kev but you take it to a new level. You make Slap look like an andy lee hater.

although i had it 5-2 as well lol
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Old 07-21-2011, 11:03 AM   #60
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Default Re: The lightweight division is there for Mitchell’s taking!

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I'm not sure I agree the fight was close until the 7th. I gave Nurray 2 rounds (2nd and 5th I think), and that was at a push. Almost every time Murray had Mitchell on the ropes, Kevin made him miss horribly, hitting him with solid body shots and uppercuts in the process. Murray's game is to get insdie his man and brutalise him, but Kevin completely reversed the tides and was probably getting the better on the inside. When he wanted to box on the back foot, he was doing so. Sure he got caught a few times, and I agree with Jpab in regards to Mitchell's poor footwork, but Kevij was pretty much in control every moment of the fight, bar a solid punch in the second which he took well.
You gave him the fifth at “a push”? That just sounds like bias, dude. Murray worked Kevin over in that round. And even then, you’ve hardly disproved my point. If we all agree that Mitchell took over in the sixth (although Murray still did some good work after that), then we’ve got five rounds. Even if Mitchell won three of those (which he didn’t) it’s still basically a one round fight – and pretty damn close whatever way you look at it.

Mitchell needs a lot more work technically on his balance and footwork before he steps up further. He’s got the physical ability, but he needs to refine his technique. But at 25 and lacking defence in the way he does… I can’t see him ever being world-class.
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