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Old 07-02-2007, 08:41 PM   #16
Sam Dixon
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Default Re: Smokin' Bert Cooper

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Dewitt was the silver medal winner in the Olympics at heavyweight in 1984. Of course the Russians and Cubans boycotted the 1984's games which is why Dewitt likely made it to the final round. Dewitt was skilled, but a bit small. Cooper exposed him.
That's really not a fair assessment of DeWitt, my friend, who came into the Olympic Games as the number one ranked amateur heavyweight in the world (and the reigning world amatuer heavyweight champion, which I think he won the two years previously during the World Cup tournaments) and was considered the pre-tournament favourite to win the whole thing. He also had recent wins over Russians like Alexander Yagubkin and Cubans like Aurelio Toyo (by KO), who began 1984 as the #2 and #3 ranked amateur heavyweights in the world respectively, and he did have at least a couple of prior wins over Tillman, who defeated him (not in my books though, as I thought DeWitt took it) at the Olympics.

DeWitt made it to the finals because he was a good enough amatuer to do so, not because some of his previously defeated rivals not showing.
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:42 AM   #17
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Default Re: Smokin' Bert Cooper

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Originally Posted by Sam Dixon
That's really not a fair assessment of DeWitt, my friend, who came into the Olympic Games as the number one ranked amateur heavyweight in the world (and the reigning world amatuer heavyweight champion, which I think he won the two years previously during the World Cup tournaments) and was considered the pre-tournament favourite to win the whole thing. He also had recent wins over Russians like Alexander Yagubkin and Cubans like Aurelio Toyo (by KO), who began 1984 as the #2 and #3 ranked amateur heavyweights in the world respectively, and he did have at least a couple of prior wins over Tillman, who defeated him (not in my books though, as I thought DeWitt took it) at the Olympics.

DeWitt made it to the finals because he was a good enough amatuer to do so, not because some of his previously defeated rivals not showing.
Thanks for the kind words. Dewitt was a fine amateur, but things went his way in 1984. I ask you to consider the following facts.

The amateur heavyweight division was broken in two with the newly created " super heavyweight " 91k+ divison. This meant that fighters like Lennox Lewis, Tyrell Biggs, and Francisco Daminani were deemed too heavy to fight DeWitt.If there was no " super heavyweight " divison in the 1984 games, Lewis, Biggs, and Damiani fight as Heavyweights and would likely defeat DeWitt.

My second point is that half of the top competition at heavyweight did not show up for the 1984 games. So in essence, DeWitt's potential competition was greatly reduced. This is not his fault. Dewitt earned his silver medal by beating the fighters who were there at 91k. My point is the creation of a new division, and the boycott of the Russians and Cubans severally drained the talent in the 91K field.

Dewitt did not even medal in the 1983 World cup in Italy. He did win the North American cup vs the Cuban Toyo, but that was 1983. When did Fleix Savon rise to prominence in the amateurs? Could he have been Cuba's man at heavyweight in 1984?
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Old 07-03-2007, 10:26 AM   #18
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Default Re: Smokin' Bert Cooper

He gave Holyfield a good fight, almost had him out, Moorer too, but Burt was a quitter when the going got tough, he would take his shot but once he got winded, he was looking for an exit, I remember Corrie Sanders blasting him out
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Old 07-03-2007, 12:17 PM   #19
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Default Re: Smokin' Bert Cooper

Bert Cooper's problem was that he never properly applied himself to boxing. Thus he was usually only dangerous for the first 3 rounds. If he trained harder he might had had more success. A big puncher for sure.
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Old 07-03-2007, 01:18 PM   #20
Sam Dixon
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Default Re: Smokin' Bert Cooper

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Thanks for the kind words. Dewitt was a fine amateur, but things went his way in 1984. I ask you to consider the following facts.

The amateur heavyweight division was broken in two with the newly created " super heavyweight " 91k+ divison. This meant that fighters like Lennox Lewis, Tyrell Biggs, and Francisco Daminani were deemed too heavy to fight DeWitt.If there was no " super heavyweight " divison in the 1984 games, Lewis, Biggs, and Damiani fight as Heavyweights and would likely defeat DeWitt.

My second point is that half of the top competition at heavyweight did not show up for the 1984 games. So in essence, DeWitt's potential competition was greatly reduced. This is not his fault. Dewitt earned his silver medal by beating the fighters who were there at 91k. My point is the creation of a new division, and the boycott of the Russians and Cubans severally drained the talent in the 91K field.

Dewitt did not even medal in the 1983 World cup in Italy. He did win the North American cup vs the Cuban Toyo, but that was 1983. When did Fleix Savon rise to prominence in the amateurs? Could he have been Cuba's man at heavyweight in 1984?
My post had more to do with your comment in regards to the "not likely" comment made in regards to the Russians and Cubans, Mendoza, so I really don't know how to answer that besides point out that the super heavyweight came into existence right after the 1980 Olympics, and the class of just heavyweights (91K) being their own seperate group who had built a class of their own. The best amateurs included in that class of division over the couple years leading to those Olympics were the likes of DeWitt, Yagubkin, Toyo, Baez, Milligan, and Tillman, with the likes of Castillo, Cardenas, Vanderlynde, Musone, Frias, Kenny, etc. all adding to to the depth on the whole global scene. Tyson came on like gangbusters at the trial to beat Milligan, but previously to that he wasn't considered one of the elite amateurs on the world scene, as he had next to no international experience at that point.

Now since you asked me so kindly, I also ask you to consider some facts, and they be of the factual results variety that are involving some of the best of that group, and these would have been some of the important international matchups involving them in the year previous and then into the Olympic year; Yagubkin beat Tillman in competition, and would have also beaten the likes of Musone, Vanderlynde, Musone, Castillo, on the international stage, as he was both the European and World champion when that Olympic class was taking shape. The Cuban, Baez, was another guy who beat Tillman in competition, as did Toyo during the finals of the then-recent the Pan Am Games. Toyo also defeated Baez for the national title in early 1984, and would have been the Cuban's representative at the Games (Savon was still a junior amateur, and wouldn't hit the senior ranks until the next year). Oh, and Toyo also defeated Milligan during that time, who in turn had split some meetings with Tillman and with his victory cover at the US nationals.

Those are basically the main matchups that took place in the division around that time involving the best global amateurs in the division, and the best of the bunch was DeWitt, who had defeated just about all of them heading into the games, including Yagubkin, Toyo (by KO), Tillman x2 (once by KO), Milligan, and even guys like Cardenas.

Going into the Games, like I said earlier, DeWitt was the #1 ranked amateur in the world for his weight class and that's with nobody omitted, as Yagubkin was ranked #2, and Toyo ranked #3. I think you can see why by the results I listed.

Ok, I see that I was wrong about DeWitt winning the World Cup in '83, as that was the tournament where the Korean butted DeWitt, got disqualified for it, and forced DeWitt out of the tournament due to a badly cut left eye. Thanks for the correction, and I see that it was actually the World Cup Challenge events that DeWitt won his world amateur titles in during '83 and '84, as that would be the event he beat Yabubkin (the then-reigning) in originally for his first world amatuer championship, which is an event DeWitt won again the next year over Tillman. Regardless though, DeWitt certainly was the reigning world amateur champion going into the Games and was the odds on favourite to win the gold medal even with the Russian and Cuban included.

"DeWitt was a fine amatuer, but things went his way in 1984."

I don't agree with that at all, as DeWitt's amateur pedigree at the international level dated back a few years before that, as he won Commonwealth Games, North American Championships, and World Championships before 1984 started, and his success continued on into that year. But you know, I'm looking at that above statement of yours, I see the prominant losses on Tillman's ledger to the two main guys who were absent from the Games, I rememeber the big fuss made over Tillman's controversial decision over Musone and the earlier fight of his that was considered a questionable/quick stoppagge (to say nothing of the DeWitt fight), and suddenly I'm thinking that, out of the two, Tillman would most definately be the one who benefited from having things that "went his way in 1984".

P.S. Yagubkin defeated Biggs in the amateurs, by the way.
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Old 07-03-2007, 07:01 PM   #21
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Default Re: Smokin' Bert Cooper

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Originally Posted by Sam Dixon
My post had more to do with your comment in regards to the "not likely" comment made in regards to the Russians and Cubans, Mendoza, so I really don't know how to answer that besides point out that the super heavyweight came into existence right after the 1980 Olympics, and the class of just heavyweights (91K) being their own seperate group who had built a class of their own. The best amateurs included in that class of division over the couple years leading to those Olympics were the likes of DeWitt, Yagubkin, Toyo, Baez, Milligan, and Tillman, with the likes of Castillo, Cardenas, Vanderlynde, Musone, Frias, Kenny, etc. all adding to to the depth on the whole global scene. Tyson came on like gangbusters at the trial to beat Milligan, but previously to that he wasn't considered one of the elite amateurs on the world scene, as he had next to no international experience at that point.

Now since you asked me so kindly, I also ask you to consider some facts, and they be of the factual results variety that are involving some of the best of that group, and these would have been some of the important international matchups involving them in the year previous and then into the Olympic year; Yagubkin beat Tillman in competition, and would have also beaten the likes of Musone, Vanderlynde, Musone, Castillo, on the international stage, as he was both the European and World champion when that Olympic class was taking shape. The Cuban, Baez, was another guy who beat Tillman in competition, as did Toyo during the finals of the then-recent the Pan Am Games. Toyo also defeated Baez for the national title in early 1984, and would have been the Cuban's representative at the Games (Savon was still a junior amateur, and wouldn't hit the senior ranks until the next year). Oh, and Toyo also defeated Milligan during that time, who in turn had split some meetings with Tillman and with his victory cover at the US nationals.

Those are basically the main matchups that took place in the division around that time involving the best global amateurs in the division, and the best of the bunch was DeWitt, who had defeated just about all of them heading into the games, including Yagubkin, Toyo (by KO), Tillman x2 (once by KO), Milligan, and even guys like Cardenas.

Going into the Games, like I said earlier, DeWitt was the #1 ranked amateur in the world for his weight class and that's with nobody omitted, as Yagubkin was ranked #2, and Toyo ranked #3. I think you can see why by the results I listed.

Ok, I see that I was wrong about DeWitt winning the World Cup in '83, as that was the tournament where the Korean butted DeWitt, got disqualified for it, and forced DeWitt out of the tournament due to a badly cut left eye. Thanks for the correction, and I see that it was actually the World Cup Challenge events that DeWitt won his world amateur titles in during '83 and '84, as that would be the event he beat Yabubkin (the then-reigning) in originally for his first world amatuer championship, which is an event DeWitt won again the next year over Tillman. Regardless though, DeWitt certainly was the reigning world amateur champion going into the Games and was the odds on favourite to win the gold medal even with the Russian and Cuban included.

"DeWitt was a fine amatuer, but things went his way in 1984."

I don't agree with that at all, as DeWitt's amateur pedigree at the international level dated back a few years before that, as he won Commonwealth Games, North American Championships, and World Championships before 1984 started, and his success continued on into that year. But you know, I'm looking at that above statement of yours, I see the prominant losses on Tillman's ledger to the two main guys who were absent from the Games, I rememeber the big fuss made over Tillman's controversial decision over Musone and the earlier fight of his that was considered a questionable/quick stoppagge (to say nothing of the DeWitt fight), and suddenly I'm thinking that, out of the two, Tillman would most definately be the one who benefited from having things that "went his way in 1984".

P.S. Yagubkin defeated Biggs in the amateurs, by the way.
I think we are talking about different things.

Yes, the Super heavyweight divsion at 91K+ made its Olympic debut in the 1984 Olympics, and yes some nations with the best boxers boycotted the 1984 games.

Moving the top talent to super heavywieght and having some nations who traditionaly field good boxing teams not show up benefited Dewitt. If neither happened, I don't think Dewitt makes it to the final match. In fact, he could have been out in round one or two depending on the draw.
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Old 07-03-2007, 10:59 PM   #22
Sam Dixon
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Default Re: Smokin' Bert Cooper

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
I think we are talking about different things.
Well, I was attempting to speak on your original "the Russians and Cubans boycotted the 1984 Games which is why DeWitt likely made it to the final round" comment in my first post, Mendoza, and continued on doing the same with my second post, which were both in response to a statement made from you where I completetly don't see the basis for when considering the events leading to the buildup of the '84 Games, and I tried explaining why. Your switching coarse and concentrating on the divisional split a few year earlier isn't of any relevance to what I was disagreeing with, although of course it would have been a factor had say, Stevenson (coupling in both your points) been competeing at those Games and in that weight class. No question there, although, like I said, both divisions were given plenty enough time to establish their own completely seperate classes.

With things being the way they were, my objections were with your original comments seeming to suggest that one of either Yagubkin or Toyo are "likely" to up end defeating him when the recent history involving fights of them suggests otherwise, as do the world amateur rankings heading directly into the Olympics. With the seeding system the way it was, DeWitt (as the #1 seed based of his world ranking) would have only had to have faced one of those two guys on his way to the finals, and considering both of their rankings, that's very likely going to be Aurelio Toyo based on how they split the #1 (DeWitt) and #2 (would have been Yagubkin) seeds into two seperate brackets with the hopes of having the two top guys meeting in the finals. And with consideration to that, I would not be the least bit comfortable saying that it is "likely" DeWitt doesn't get by Toyo when the recent history shows something different. Oh, unless you somehow think Toyo is going to benefit from all that favourtism that the Americans like Tillman were getting in those Olympics from the boxing officials, which was a percieved bias that pretty much cast a shadow over the boxing competition as a whole, with a large number of complaints from other countries being voiced having to do with that, including one country (the Koreans) threatening to pull out completely after what was percieved on their part to be two bad decisions suffered by them against the Americans (people wonder why Roy got screwed over in '88?). Heck, even the American crowd got fed up with some of the decisions involving the American team, as evident when they loudly booed such "hometown" decisions as Tillman/ Musone, Biggs/Damiani, Tate/O'Sullivan (the American fans even booed the medal presentation to go along this one), etc, which is a few fights where the US team was seen to have benefited significantly from some rather generous boxing officiating.

But I regress, and in fact, maybe I should stop my part of the discussion with this post seeeing as how you hint at a possible lack of understanding with each other or something, to say nothing of where some of my thought process may lead to if/when recalling some things from those controverial boxing Olympics from 1984. But regardless of what our points are, or what misunderstanding we may have, I did enjoy the discussion though, so the least I could do is thank you. 'Preciate it and take care.
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Old 07-03-2007, 11:27 PM   #23
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Default Re: Smokin' Bert Cooper

Management had nothing to do with Cooper's lack of success.
I saw him a ton early in his career and if memory serves me correct Joe Frazier was once working with him.
He beat Dewitt and Tillman.
He started as a crusierweight and then moved up to heavyweight and was matched up with Carl Williams who Cooper made look like a power punching ALI and was stopped in the 8th round.
Cooper didn't like to train and had a drug problem throughout his career.
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Old 07-04-2007, 03:52 AM   #24
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Management had nothing to do with Cooper's lack of success.
I saw him a ton early in his career and if memory serves me correct Joe Frazier was once working with him.
He beat Dewitt and Tillman.
He started as a crusierweight and then moved up to heavyweight and was matched up with Carl Williams who Cooper made look like a power punching ALI and was stopped in the 8th round.
Cooper didn't like to train and had a drug problem throughout his career.
If memory serves me, Joe Frazier was working with Cooper when he was a cruiserweight.

I saw Cooper on NBC TV when he went up vs the Olympic Heavyweight Champ Henry Tillman for the NABF Cruiserweight title.
Tillman was actually the fighter who was being showcased on NBC, but Cooper suprised everyone by knocking down Tillman a couple of times early and having him in trouble on a few other occasions for the decision victory by Cooper.

Cooper just was'nt dedicated to the Gym, but imo the problem with Cooper is that he was caught between fighting weights.
His best fighting weight was inbetween cruiserweight and Heavyweight, and so it was probably a terrible struggle for him to get down to the cruiserweight limit, and on the Heavyweight side, he was too small in stature to compete vs the bigger better Heavyweights like Riddick Bowe, Carl Williams, George Foreman, etc......

Its the myth that Cooper did very well vs Evander Holyfield.
In actuality, he almost got lucky when Holyfield who that night wanted to impress the naysayers who thought he was too small to beat Mike Tyson, was ultra offensive vs Cooper.
Holyfield opened his offense so much in his fight with Cooper that he ran into a big Cooper right hand that almost won Cooper the Heavyweight Championship of the World.
Aside from that right hand, Evander Holyfield really pretty much had his way vs Cooper.
Holyfield being ultra offensive pretty much gave Cooper a punchers chance of winning, but the disparity in skill was quite evident.

A good fighting weight for Coopers body would have been between 200 and 210 lbs.....Cooper is probably competitive with anybody if his opponents are also fighting between those weights, because unlike Evander Holyfield, Cooper did'nt have the speed and quickness being a small guy to compete vs bigger fighters.
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Old 07-04-2007, 07:11 AM   #25
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Default Re: Smokin' Bert Cooper

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Originally Posted by Sam Dixon
My post had more to do with your comment in regards to the "not likely" comment made in regards to the Russians and Cubans, Mendoza, so I really don't know how to answer that besides point out that the super heavyweight came into existence right after the 1980 Olympics, and the class of just heavyweights (91K) being their own seperate group who had built a class of their own. The best amateurs included in that class of division over the couple years leading to those Olympics were the likes of DeWitt, Yagubkin, Toyo, Baez, Milligan, and Tillman, with the likes of Castillo, Cardenas, Vanderlynde, Musone, Frias, Kenny, etc. all adding to to the depth on the whole global scene. Tyson came on like gangbusters at the trial to beat Milligan, but previously to that he wasn't considered one of the elite amateurs on the world scene, as he had next to no international experience at that point.

Sam,

I think my points of the newly created super heavyweight division and the boycott of 1984 games limiting the field helped Dewitt win the silver medal. Dewitt also fought at super heavyweight before the games. He did not even medal. Without the creation of the super heavyweight division, Dewitt would not win silver. He would be lucky to get bronze. We were talking about different things, but since you know quite a bit about the happenings of the time I want to talk more about what you were saying.


If your points are based on Dewitt already beating the Cubans and Russians at heavyweight before the game, then I ask for Dewitt's complete amateur record. If Dewitt lost to a person who was not allowed to attend the games, you have to consider the possibility of him losing again to that person at the games. The Amateurs can be funny. The list of fighters who went into the games as the #1 fighter often fails to win gold. Some fighters who never beat so and so, do manage to finally defeat the person in question during the games. Any way you slice it, the boxing field in the 1984 Olympics was not at full strength. Dewitt is not a slam dunk to defeat any of the Russians or Cubans he did in the past. I donít have anything against DeWitt. He was fun to watch, and after his professional ring career was he opened up a practice of law. For sure Dewitt was a winner in and out of the ring. I just think he greatly benefited from the world politics and the creation of a new division to medal at the Olympic Games.

Cheers.
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:52 AM   #26
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Default Re: Smokin' Bert Cooper

supposedly alot of people don't recognize this but he was if not the hardest hitter out there, almost like a cruiserweight earnie shavers, he had an ungodly punchin power, i think he was really prodded by frazier to become heavyweight to fast when he wanted to stay cruiser, which contributed to their split, along with other factors, i remember reading that after he fought craig peterson in the People's Choice tournamen, peterson who is from NZ or austrailia thought he was back in his native country when the fight was in the US, to hit someone that hard is otherworldly tough
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:55 AM   #27
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i rememeber oliver mccall saying the hardest punch he ever felt was a cooper left hook, how tough do ya gotta be to hurt someone like mccall! thats insane, cooper had to have been the hardest puncher out there next to shavers
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