Herol Graham: I don't get the love - Page 2

TBooze · 07-31-2011, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhataRock

I don't know who considered Kalambay limited...but that says more about the British sporting press (or whoever was making those assertions) than it does about Sumbu.

I didn't see a limited fighter during his "loss" to Kalule...perhaps a bit green and unpolished but overall an excellent 2 handed technician, who even managed to hurt Kalule a few times.

You are using 24 years of hindsight with modern technology to boot.

Hardly anyone in Britain would of seen Kalule/Kalambay at the time, plenty saw Kalule/Graham, thus Bomber/Sambu was a mismatch. Of course we know that is not boxing, but it was very easy to make that assumption at the time, and thus Graham rightly got called on it...

TheGreatA · 07-31-2011, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBooze

You are using 24 years of hindsight with modern technology to boot.

Hardly anyone in Britain would of seen Kalule/Kalambay at the time, plenty saw Kalule/Graham, thus Bomber/Sambu was a mismatch. Of course we know that is not boxing, but it was very easy to make that assumption at the time, and thus Graham rightly got called on it...

I take hindsight over ignorance. I'm sure that's how it seemed to be at the time but we know better now. Graham was really good, he just happened to face two elite opponents.

Primadonna Kool · 07-31-2011, 11:27 AM

Its his own fault if he does not get no love.

When he really had to win, he didn't.

And he COULD OF, but inside of the ring had bad judgement at times.

TBooze · 07-31-2011, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreatA

I take hindsight over ignorance. I'm sure that's how it seemed to be at the time but we know better now. Graham was really good, he just happened to face two elite opponents.

So you are revising history!!!

Which is fair enough, but always should be put in that context, as it is unfair otherwise.

Joe.Boxer · 07-31-2011, 01:39 PM

He gets the sympathy vote for coming agonizingly close to winning a title on 3 occasions.

lora · 07-31-2011, 03:23 PM

Kalule only had a handful of sharp performances left in him when he came out of a year and a half's retirement after the McCallum bout.He was briefly rejuvenated Hopkins style by coming back at a higher weight, but not for long.

Booze is completely right in saying what the view on graham losing to kalambay was at the time, in fact i'd probably say it's one of the biggest upsets in modern british boxing history...from a BRITISH perspective at the time.

However this is one of these cases when you actually see the fights you didn't at the time, imo you can pretty easily see the mighty effort given against Kalambay took most of what was left out of Kalule.I've got both up on youtube btw for anyone interested, though the kalambay fight is a bit fucked up, but all the early rounds are there(wich were kalule's best imo).

He could still slip punches really well against Graham, but that's because the guy was extremely well schooled fundamentally.Offensively and reflexively he had nothing and could barely get any punches off.

Against Kalambay he was sharp as he had been since the early 154 bouts; threw more lead lefts and put more combo's together inside 3 rounds than he did in ten against Herol.

There was likely minimal effort put into considering Kalule might not have had much left when he fought Graham, or checking out Kalambay outside of the brief writeups in the boxing mags or his deceiving larocca'esque record.

Confidence in Graham was high and Barney Eastwood was a dodgy promoter/manager imo.Not exactly thorough or safe with any of the fighters he had.His choice of opponent for Graham on the McGuigan Cruz undercard when he was trying to showcase him as an opponent for Hagler was another disaster.

As for Graham himself, i agree he's been overhyped on message boards at times and for the wrong reasons imo(defensive technical master etc).he was still more or less a very good fighter that would be a tough puzzle to solve if you aren't a genuinely top-notch fighter.

My dinner with Conteh · 07-31-2011, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBooze

If I remember rightly it was shown on a Saturday afternoon (Grandstand), so I suspect (but could quite easily be wrong), that the fight would of been edited.

It may have been, but it was defintely shown live (or maybe an hour or so behind with transmission) the actual night of the fight. It took place in the week.

My dinner with Conteh · 07-31-2011, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBooze

So you are revising history!!!

Which is fair enough, but always should be put in that context, as it is unfair otherwise.

100% true, using hindsight in these situations is ridiculous in my opinion. However, the boxing press felt it was a high-risk fight vs. a very capable opponent- and so it proved.

lora · 07-31-2011, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh

It may have been, but it was defintely shown live (or maybe an hour or so behind with transmission) the actual night of the fight. It took place in the week.

Eurosport showed it live if i remember rightly.

there's a Reg Gutteridge solo call as well.

I've always wondered if McCallum's fights with Graham and kalambay(2) were given an american broadcast incidentally.

My dinner with Conteh · 07-31-2011, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lora

Eurosport showed it live if i remember rightly.

.

Yes, it was definitely shown in full that night, likely a live transmission, I watched it in the booozer. I didn't think it was Reg though, either Harry on Sportsnight or Steve Holdsworth on Euro or Screensport.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lora

I've always wondered if McCallum's fights with Graham and kalambay(2) were given an american broadcast incidentally.

Not sure. I think Mike-Sumbu I was broadcast in the US, maybe that's why you didn't mention it.

Cobra33 · 08-01-2011, 05:38 PM

Graham is VASTLY underrated.Yes Jackson startched him in 4 but Jackson also starched TERRY NORRIS IN TWO.

You do realize that if Graham would not have had a point deduction he would have DRAWN with Mkie Mccallum??The same Mccallum who beat the hell out of Michael Watson and a host of others.

And Graham beat Kalambay the second time-the decision was a disgrace.

He also beat a young SanderlineWilliams who gave NIGEL BENN hell.

And he knocked out a young Lindell Holmes who YEARS latter and WAY past his best took Eubank the distance.

lora · 08-01-2011, 06:07 PM

Cobra, he stopped Holmes on a cut.

hitman_hatton1 · 08-01-2011, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra33

Graham is VASTLY underrated.Yes Jackson startched him in 4 but Jackson also starched TERRY NORRIS IN TWO.

You do realize that if Graham would not have had a point deduction he would have DRAWN with Mkie Mccallum??The same Mccallum who beat the hell out of Michael Watson and a host of others.

And Graham beat Kalambay the second time-the decision was a disgrace.

He also beat a young SanderlineWilliams who gave NIGEL BENN hell.

And he knocked out a young Lindell Holmes who YEARS latter and WAY past his best took Eubank the distance.

soft point deduction in the mccallum fight as well.

ref was well harsh.

agreed on the 2nd kalambay fight as well.

Saintpat · 08-01-2011, 11:55 PM

I do chuckle at the "dominated Julian Jackson" viewpoint -- he "dominated" three rounds and change. I've seen more unlikely comebacks.

And when he did get hit, like most of Jackson's victims, he was absolutely comatose.

In the end, I'd say Julian did more dominating with one punch than poor Herol did in 3+ rounds.

kopejh · 08-02-2011, 12:01 AM

I don't get the love either not because he wasn't as good as people say but because he had an ugly ass style.

07-31-2011, 11:27 AM	#18
Primadonna Kool P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Liverpool Posts: 16,552 vCash: 1000	Re: Herol Graham: I don't get the love Its his own fault if he does not get no love. When he really had to win, he didn't. And he COULD OF, but inside of the ring had bad judgement at times.
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07-31-2011, 01:39 PM	#20
Joe.Boxer Chinchecker ESB Addict Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 4,463 vCash: 240	Re: Herol Graham: I don't get the love He gets the sympathy vote for coming agonizingly close to winning a title on 3 occasions.
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07-31-2011, 03:23 PM	#21
lora Fighting Zapata East Side Guru Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 5,453 vCash: 500	Re: Herol Graham: I don't get the love Kalule only had a handful of sharp performances left in him when he came out of a year and a half's retirement after the McCallum bout.He was briefly rejuvenated Hopkins style by coming back at a higher weight, but not for long. Booze is completely right in saying what the view on graham losing to kalambay was at the time, in fact i'd probably say it's one of the biggest upsets in modern british boxing history...from a BRITISH perspective at the time. However this is one of these cases when you actually see the fights you didn't at the time, imo you can pretty easily see the mighty effort given against Kalambay took most of what was left out of Kalule.I've got both up on youtube btw for anyone interested, though the kalambay fight is a bit fucked up, but all the early rounds are there(wich were kalule's best imo). He could still slip punches really well against Graham, but that's because the guy was extremely well schooled fundamentally.Offensively and reflexively he had nothing and could barely get any punches off. Against Kalambay he was sharp as he had been since the early 154 bouts; threw more lead lefts and put more combo's together inside 3 rounds than he did in ten against Herol. There was likely minimal effort put into considering Kalule might not have had much left when he fought Graham, or checking out Kalambay outside of the brief writeups in the boxing mags or his deceiving larocca'esque record. Confidence in Graham was high and Barney Eastwood was a dodgy promoter/manager imo.Not exactly thorough or safe with any of the fighters he had.His choice of opponent for Graham on the McGuigan Cruz undercard when he was trying to showcase him as an opponent for Hagler was another disaster. As for Graham himself, i agree he's been overhyped on message boards at times and for the wrong reasons imo(defensive technical master etc).he was still more or less a very good fighter that would be a tough puzzle to solve if you aren't a genuinely top-notch fighter.
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08-01-2011, 05:38 PM	#26
Cobra33 Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,403 vCash: 1000	Re: Herol Graham: I don't get the love Graham is VASTLY underrated.Yes Jackson startched him in 4 but Jackson also starched TERRY NORRIS IN TWO. You do realize that if Graham would not have had a point deduction he would have DRAWN with Mkie Mccallum??The same Mccallum who beat the hell out of Michael Watson and a host of others. And Graham beat Kalambay the second time-the decision was a disgrace. He also beat a young SanderlineWilliams who gave NIGEL BENN hell. And he knocked out a young Lindell Holmes who YEARS latter and WAY past his best took Eubank the distance.
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08-01-2011, 06:07 PM	#27
lora Fighting Zapata East Side Guru Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 5,453 vCash: 500	Re: Herol Graham: I don't get the love Cobra, he stopped Holmes on a cut.
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08-01-2011, 11:55 PM	#29
Saintpat Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,195 vCash: 1000	Re: Herol Graham: I don't get the love I do chuckle at the "dominated Julian Jackson" viewpoint -- he "dominated" three rounds and change. I've seen more unlikely comebacks. And when he did get hit, like most of Jackson's victims, he was absolutely comatose. In the end, I'd say Julian did more dominating with one punch than poor Herol did in 3+ rounds.
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08-02-2011, 12:01 AM	#30
kopejh Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Illinois Posts: 2,969 vCash: 861	Re: Herol Graham: I don't get the love I don't get the love either not because he wasn't as good as people say but because he had an ugly ass style.
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