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Old 12-16-2014, 11:47 PM   #1
Ra's Al-Ghul
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Default Best European boxers pound for pound

I try to make a ranking of the finest European boxers in the last decade:

1. Sven Ottke
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Vitaly Klitschko
4. Johnny Nelson
5. Sergey Dzinziruk
6. Wladimir Sidorenko
7. Zsolt Erdei
8. Arthur Abraham
9. Ricky Hatton
10. Mikkel Kessler
11. Wladimir Klitschko
12. Jean-Marc Mormeck
13. Andreas Kotelnik
14. Lucian Bute
15. Tomasz Adamek
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Old 12-16-2014, 11:52 PM   #2
The General
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Default Re: Best European boxers pound for pound

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra's Al-Ghul View Post
I try to make a ranking of the finest European boxers in the last decade:

1. Sven Ottke
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Vitaly Klitschko
4. Johnny Nelson
5. Sergey Dzinziruk
6. Wladimir Sidorenko
7. Zsolt Erdei
8. Arthur Abraham
9. Ricky Hatton
10. Mikkel Kessler
11. Wladimir Klitschko
12. Jean-Marc Mormeck
13. Andreas Kotelnik
14. Lucian Bute
15. Tomasz Adamek
nice trolling
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Old 12-17-2014, 12:11 AM   #3
Ra's Al-Ghul
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Default Re: Best European boxers pound for pound

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Originally Posted by The General View Post
nice trolling
Thanks to get this honour from you! As if someone have to know it, then you.

By the way Erdei and Abraham are about equal (in achievement), while Urkal can be listed (perhaps under the first ten) and maybe Beyer too (possible Harrison as well).
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Old 12-17-2014, 12:38 AM   #4
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Default Re: Best European boxers pound for pound

Nice trolling attempt, re****.
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Old 12-17-2014, 10:31 AM   #5
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Default Re: Best European boxers pound for pound

Bute makes top 15 but not Brähmer?

Even if we accept the dubious premise that Bute is "European" despite having lived and fought in Quebec his entire pro career - I'm not sure he ranks above Brähmer anyway.

Bute is 10-1 (8.) in world title fights but his reign was notoriously low on quality. Besides the pair over Andrade (the first extremely controversial, and many still feel it should be an L on his record), blown-up 160lb slugger Miranda coming off losses in his last three meaningful bouts, and elderly buddy and sparring partner Glen Johnson, all of his defenses were rubbish, at least compared with the men Brähmer fought going 7-1 in world title fights. (not that any were spectacular, the best of the bunch probably being Sukhotsky, Kuziemski and Oliveira - but they are head and shoulders above Bute's championship opposition)

Even some of Brähmer's non-world title opposition (Gutnechkht etc) is better than Bute's reign.

...and competitive decision losses to Garay and Veit are less embarrassing than being ragdolled by Froch.
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Old 12-17-2014, 11:34 PM   #6
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Default Re: Best European boxers pound for pound

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Originally Posted by IntentionalButt View Post
Bute makes top 15 but not Brähmer?

Even if we accept the dubious premise that Bute is "European" despite having lived and fought in Quebec his entire pro career - I'm not sure he ranks above Brähmer anyway.

Bute is 10-1 (8.) in world title fights but his reign was notoriously low on quality. Besides the pair over Andrade (the first extremely controversial, and many still feel it should be an L on his record), blown-up 160lb slugger Miranda coming off losses in his last three meaningful bouts, and elderly buddy and sparring partner Glen Johnson, all of his defenses were rubbish, at least compared with the men Brähmer fought going 7-1 in world title fights. (not that any were spectacular, the best of the bunch probably being Sukhotsky, Kuziemski and Oliveira - but they are head and shoulders above Bute's championship opposition)

Even some of Brähmer's non-world title opposition (Gutnechkht etc) is better than Bute's reign.

...and competitive decision losses to Garay and Veit are less embarrassing than being ragdolled by Froch.
Are you serious?

Bute is born and raised up Romanian (for which he attend in the Olympic Games and Amateur world championships), possible did even a professional fight there, or wanted it. His competition is levels ahead of Brähmer, who got comfortable outworked by Garay (stopped most of the punches with his head); his best win was perhaps against over the hill Veit (who defeated him even before and lost between it vs. Inkin by knockout). While "Le Tompdeur" has a least nine successful title-defendings against decent opposition as Mendy, Andrade, Miranda, Brinkley, Magee, Johnson (who got here outclassed, while he received in the immediately fight before a unfair decision vs. Froch and stopped Green) and Zuniga. Even before won he clear against Berrio and Bika. These are all far better/ more proved than Olivares, feather-fist Kuzemski and even Shukhotsy wasn't it at that time. He was only paper champion, because Erdei was forced vacate the WBO title, that Brähmer could hook it up. Lucian Bute on the other hand dared to go to Frochs' hometown in the cave of the lion and even won the first two rounds in my opinion. Only Gutknecht (who got dominated by Stieglitz before) was top 15, but that was razor close/ could have gone either way.

Actually he possibly could switch the places with Kotelnik and I had him above Ward in 2011/ early 2012. He won at least against 7 boxer out of the top 20 at that time, while Jürgen Brähmer haven't more than two. Even Mbaye, Witter, Haye and Tiozzo deserve it rather to be listed here.
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Old 12-18-2014, 01:35 AM   #7
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Default Re: Best European boxers pound for pound

Sergey kovalev
Dennis lebedev
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Old 12-18-2014, 02:34 AM   #8
Ra's Al-Ghul
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Default Re: Best European boxers pound for pound

They weren't even world champions in that time period (Kovalev was rather rookie then).

By the way Jürgen Brähmers wins over Olivera and Gutknecht doesn't suit as well to be rate for this subject.
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Old 12-18-2014, 06:33 AM   #9
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Default Re: Best European boxers pound for pound

P4P doesn't exist in Europe (or at all). I was fearing that someone would bring that circus, and here it is.
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Old 12-19-2014, 12:06 AM   #10
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Default Re: Best European boxers pound for pound

I forgot Zaveck (he's better than Tomek in my opinion), Denis Inkin can be possible named as well.
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Old 12-19-2014, 02:46 PM   #11
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Default Re: Best European boxers pound for pound

Bute's opposition was notoriously bad for a p4p ranked champion.

It was a laughingstock all throughout his IBF reign, actually.

He did not make seven title defenses against decent opposition. He fought Librado Andrade, twice. (and in many people's eyes they should have been 1-1) Nobody else was really "decent".
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Old 12-19-2014, 02:51 PM   #12
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Default Re: Best European boxers pound for pound

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Originally Posted by Ra's Al-Ghul View Post
They weren't even world champions in that time period (Kovalev was rather rookie then).

By the way Jürgen Brähmers wins over Olivera and Gutknecht doesn't suit as well to be rate for this subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra's Al-Ghul View Post
I forgot Zaveck (he's better than Tomek in my opinion), Denis Inkin can be possible named as well.

So by 'the last decade', you don't mean 2004- present, you mean 2000 until 2010?

That does change matters then.

Strictly going by that as your time frame then no, I wouldn't put Brähmer above Bute for body of work. Even with his fantastic 2009 (stopping Kuziemski and overcoming Sukhotsky) and the Veit rematch KO, his resume in that period wasn't quite up to Bute's with Bika, Berrio, Andrade x2 and Miranda.

Since 2010 Brähmer's is better.
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:06 AM   #13
Ra's Al-Ghul
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Default Re: Best European boxers pound for pound

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Bute's opposition was notoriously bad for a p4p ranked champion.

It was a laughingstock all throughout his IBF reign, actually.

He did not make seven title defenses against decent opposition. He fought Librado Andrade, twice. (and in many people's eyes they should have been 1-1) Nobody else was really "decent".
I assume he fought the best available opponents at Super-Middleweight, apart of the other champions.

Yes he didn't do it in title-defendings, but also few before becoming world champion. Though in my opinion would he have lost the first fight with Andrade too, outside of Canada/ without the help of the referee (it was an American, maybe was the name Wright so someting like it), but Ward had always the aid of the referee (it got a factor for instance vs. Kessler, Bika and Abraham), mostly at his backyard, while Froch also often (or from the judges) or was lucky sometimes. Bute had just a higher number of title defences (twice as many) against decent challengers, therefore a rated him as best super-middleweight and sometimes even in the pound for pound top 20 (due to several boxers above him lost or retired).

Andre Ward was nobody previous he attend in the Super-Middleweight World Classics and it was even more laughable, that Allan Green (who was even outboxed by Miranda and is only known because he exposed hypejob Codrington) participated in it, instead of the world title-holders Lucian Bute and Robert Stieglitz/ Karoly Balzsay or maybe former champion Inkin. The reason was just, Showtime wanted American based boxers in it.
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Old 12-20-2014, 03:23 AM   #14
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Default Re: Best European boxers pound for pound

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Originally Posted by IntentionalButt View Post
So by 'the last decade', you don't mean 2004- present, you mean 2000 until 2010?

That does change matters then.

Strictly going by that as your time frame then no, I wouldn't put Brähmer above Bute for body of work. Even with his fantastic 2009 (stopping Kuziemski and overcoming Sukhotsky) and the Veit rematch KO, his resume in that period wasn't quite up to Bute's with Bika, Berrio, Andrade x2 and Miranda.

Since 2010 Brähmer's is better.
Yes I do. Well Brähmer might be more impressive in this decade (or rather since 2012) a little bit, but in comparison their whole careers has the is the Romanian boxer a lot more achieved. Although he actually dominated round 1 - 4 in the first clash with fadded Veit, but he then was too passive, got outworked and his defensive lacks were first exposed here (even more by Garay, who won 9 or 10 rounds, where he only last because of his excellent chin), he was also almost stopped by Shukhotsy, when he didn't threw anything back (just tried to move his head away) as the challenger fired a barrage of over twenty punches in row in round 8 (which he won 10 - 8, whithout knockdown).

Well Davis, Branccallion and possible Averlant were European class, but Magee won against Markussen and L****n, which placed him into the top 15, Mendy, Andrade and Miranda were still top 10, while Bute won almost every round vs. Johnson (about twice as many as Froch previous) and Brinkley won an IBF-eliminator. I admit, few of these accomplishments were past that decade (so Adamek could be ahead of him therefore). Thought Jürgen Brähmer was since 2006 or 2007 always top ten in his weight-division and he's most likely the best Mecklemburg-Vorpommerian boxer, next to Sebstian Sylvester, of all time.
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Old 12-21-2014, 07:40 PM   #15
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Default Re: Best European boxers pound for pound

Carl Froch?
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