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Old 07-03-2007, 02:41 PM   #16
TBooze
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Default Re: Where is Harry Greb in your All time Greats Top list?

20 Bob Fitzsimmons
19 Stanley Ketchel
18 Harry Greb
17 Ezzard Charles
16 Benny Leonard
15 Julio Cesar Chavez
14 Mickey Walker
13 Ray Leonard
12 Carlos Monzon
11 Muhammad Ali
10 Charley Burley

9 Sammy Langford
8 Archie Moore
7 Jimmy Wilde
6 Willie Pep
5 Sandy Sadler
4 Georges Carpentier
3 Roberto Duran
2 Henry Armstrong
1 Ray Robinson


A brilliant fighter who was taken away from us too soon.

If hed, had another four/five years, he could easily become top 10 if not top 5, IMO.
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Old 07-03-2007, 02:42 PM   #17
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Default Re: Where is Harry Greb in your All time Greats Top list?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Don't you have Roy Jones in your top 10 though? So why do you guys rip on my opinion?
i dont have roy in my top 10 not anywhere near
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Old 07-03-2007, 02:48 PM   #18
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Default Re: Where is Harry Greb in your All time Greats Top list?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBooze
20 Bob Fitzsimmons
19 Stanley Ketchel
18 Harry Greb
17 Ezzard Charles
16 Benny Leonard
15 Julio Cesar Chavez
14 Mickey Walker
13 Ray Leonard
12 Carlos Monzon
11 Muhammad Ali
10 Charley Burley

9 Sammy Langford
8 Archie Moore
7 Jimmy Wilde
6 Willie Pep
5 Sandy Sadler
4 Georges Carpentier
3 Roberto Duran
2 Henry Armstrong
1 Ray Robinson


A brilliant fighter who was taken away from us too soon.

If hed, had another four/five years, he could easily become top 10 if not top 5, IMO.
Come on now T, Carpentier at 4 and Greb at 18? Greb would have wiped the floor with Carpentier.
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Old 07-03-2007, 02:57 PM   #19
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Default Re: Where is Harry Greb in your All time Greats Top list?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
I know what they did, but why do they rate above guys like Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore? Or guys like Benny Leonard or Whitaker in Arguello's case?
Archie Moore lost most of his big fights, thats why most rank monzon higher, even ring magazine ranks monzon higher than moore.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:01 PM   #20
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Default Re: Where is Harry Greb in your All time Greats Top list?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
You've got to be joking? You are joking correct? He has the best resume of all time, what does he need another 4 years for? Carpentier over him or any of those guys is laughable as well. Greb should be way higher, your reason for ranking him so low is ridiculous and holds no water.
Carpentier was the only fighter to claim a national title in all classic eight divisions.

He was a European Champion at 135, 147, 160, 175 and Heavyweight.

He was the best Light Heavyweight in the world from 1910 all the way though to 22. He was Light Heavyweight Champion of the world (1913 to 1922). He also claimed a white World Championship at Heavyweight.

That resume is better than Greb's, thus Carpentier is my all time #4 and Greb #18.

Greb was brilliant but is slightly overrated by most because of SSS. ('Salvador Sanchez Syndrome' he died too early)
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:12 PM   #21
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Default Re: Where is Harry Greb in your All time Greats Top list?

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He was the best Light Heavyweight in the world from 1910 all the way though to 22.
That's a pretty heady claim. I'm not sure I could so easily rank Carpentier thusly given the presence of Battling Levinsky, Tommy Gibbons, Jack Dillon, and Kid Norfolk during that period. Still, that's an interesting argument you make for including Carpentier in the top-5 all-time, even if I don't agree.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:14 PM   #22
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Default Re: Where is Harry Greb in your All time Greats Top list?

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Ring Magazine ranks Dempsey at #18 and Marciano at #12 P4P, so I don't think they are that reliable. Still they're better than most other publications like ESPN.
Well i dont agree with how low they rank carlos ortiz and how they overrate basilio and lamotta, but IMO Carlos Monzon simply ranks higher because he won every big fight he was in. You can make any excuse you want like this guy was blown up, or the other guy was out of his prime. The fact of thet matter is that you can look at archie moore's resume and you will notice that he lost to most elites that he fought.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:20 PM   #23
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Default Re: Where is Harry Greb in your All time Greats Top list?

One only has to look at grebs record to see he was frigging awesome,about number 2 or 3 for me,also he had a dodgy eye i believe for a part of his career,is that true?
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:22 PM   #24
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Default Re: Where is Harry Greb in your All time Greats Top list?

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He was a European champ! Whoopedy doo. How many quality fighters did he ever beat?

He was most certainly not better than Tunney either. Greb has a MUCH better resume. You can point out statistics all you want, but in the end it comes down to who you faced and beat, and Greb FAAAAAAAAAAAR outdoes Carpentier in that category, as do many fighters.

And once again, Greb didn't die too early, he had a good career and has the best ever resume in boxing, it doesn't matter when he died if you accomplished what he did. He was around for a good amount of time, I don't think anyone sees Greb as one who didn't fulfill his potential.
European titles were very important in that era.

Ledoux, Sulivan, Lewis, Smith, Levinsky, Lewis and Gibbons were excellent names. And even in 1924 he was able to compete with a primed Tunney for 10 rounds, despite being as much as 10 years past his pomp.

Greb was in his fighting prime in 1926 and died, another symthom of SSS is an inabilty to recognize that a death can give you an emotional attachment to a fighter... you are after all human!
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:28 PM   #25
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Default Re: Where is Harry Greb in your All time Greats Top list?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Wins over:

Bob Olson
Nino Valdez X2
Harold Johnson X4
Bob Baker
Joey Maxim X3
Oakland Billy Smith X2
Jimmy Bivins X4
Bob Satterfield
Alabama Kid
Ted Lowry
Buddy Walker
Holman Williams
Cocoa Kid
Lloyd Marshall X2
Bandit Romero X2

Losses to:

Ali
Floyd Patterson
Rocky Marciano
Harold Johnson(4 wins)
Ezzard Charles X3
Holman Williams(also holds a win)
Jimmy Bivins(4 wins)
Charley Burley

As you can see, he has quite a good wins resume, and his losses were either to bigger opponents when past his prime(and ATG opponents at that) or he avenged them. Monzon doesn't have a resume like this.
When i look at how good a resume, i usually mean the people that you beat. I could care less if someone fought 10 or 11 hall of famers, if you lose to most of them, it just makes you look bad. Harold Johnson is the only guy he beat that i would put on a top 100 of all times list, while monzon beat 3 guys that you can put on the list. He is better and detloff(ring magazine) agress with me.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:33 PM   #26
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Default Re: Where is Harry Greb in your All time Greats Top list?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
The guys Monzon beat were WW's. People give B-Hop shit for this, but it's OK for Monzon?
Charley burley was a WW and moore lost to him. Last time i checked, bennie briscoe, rodrigo valdez and nino benvenuti were all legit middleweights and all 3 of them are usually in the top 50 middleweights of all time. Hell make a list of the top 75 middleweights ever and about 9 or 10 monzon victims will be on it. So, lets look at it this way monzon beat 2 ATG welterweights, one ended up being a middleweight champ and on top of that he beat every top middleweight of his era and 3 top 50 middleweights of all times.

Archie Moore only became light heavyweight champ after Ezzard charles left the division, he lost most of his big fights, whether you like it or not, you can come up with 101 excuses, it wont change reality.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:34 PM   #27
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Default Re: Where is Harry Greb in your All time Greats Top list?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
It has nothing to do with that. Look at who he fought and beat, it's that simple. It has ntohing to do with how young he died. Sal Sanchez maybe(although he had quite a career to that point as well), but Greb not at all. If you accomplish more than anyone else to that age than what does it matter if you didn;t fight till you were 40?
Greb did twice as much as Carpentier did in half the time.

Look at Henry Armstrong for instance, who T obviously rates highly. How long did his period of dominance last? Not that long at all. But he cleaned out half the sport in that time, and nothing else needs to be said. It doesn't matter that he didn't have a 10 or 15 year prime.

Patrick Charpentier imo has DLH syndrome. Competent in a lot of weight classes, but never really that outstanding in any of them.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:37 PM   #28
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Default Re: Where is Harry Greb in your All time Greats Top list?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
It has nothing to do with that. Look at who he fought and beat, it's that simple. It has ntohing to do with how young he died. Sal Sanchez maybe(although he had quite a career to that point as well), but Greb not at all. If you accomplish more than anyone else to that age than what does it matter if you didn;t fight till you were 40?
But Greb did not that is my point. Caprentier fought and won tiles in an era when titles mattered, Greb fought in that era as well, but his title count is nothing to Carpentier, and that is in part because he died young and could not fulfill his true potential.

When I rate my all time greats (which Greb was) I do not use potential as a criteria, thus Greb's early death means I can place him no higher than #18. IMO to place him any higher would be to punish fighters who had full careers.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:42 PM   #29
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Default Re: Where is Harry Greb in your All time Greats Top list?

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But Greb did not that is my point. Caprentier fought and won tiles in an era when titles mattered,
How much could the heavyweight championship of Europe matter when all you had to do to earn it was defeat Bombardier Billy Wells?
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:54 PM   #30
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Default Re: Where is Harry Greb in your All time Greats Top list?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Are you not listening? He didn't die too young! ?
Maybe that is where you going wrong, your listening rather than reading

Greb was in his pomp in 1926 when he died following an operation to remove a tooth if memory serves me right.
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