Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-03-2007, 05:02 AM   #31
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,632
vCash: 238
Default Re: Max Baer is a Boxing God - Worhsip Him!!

While better dedication would certainly have helped him, i don't think he had THAT much potential.

You don't go 50 fights many of which go 10 rounds or more without learning a thing or two about boxing technique and skill. I think he simply couldn't be much better, outside of stopping clowning. Some people are crude and will always be, simple as that.
Yes he has an iron chin and a huge punch, but so does Samuel Peter. Both will be crude punchers no matter how much they train.

Same with Bowe. All the dedication in the world wouldn't have stopped him from have a leaky defense where even journeymen had 50% connect percentage on; no wonder his career was so short. Not to mention the complete lack of a straight right hand which is the key to beat Lennox Lewis.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-03-2007, 05:09 AM   #32
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 20,571
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Max Baer is a Boxing God - Worhsip Him!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
While better dedication would certainly have helped him, i don't think he had THAT much potential.

You don't go 50 fights many of which go 10 rounds or more without learning a thing or two about boxing technique and skill. I think he simply couldn't be much better, outside of stopping clowning.
Baer was a slugger pure and simple who won by beating his oponents down. The one thing that a fighter like Baer cannot aford to loose is killer instinct.

He was verry consistent untill he killed Frankie Campbel and it was this event that caused him to become an inconsistent fighter.

A good example of what he had the potential to be is the Schmeling fight. Here was the best defensive counterpuncher in the division at the time and Baer still beat him down in the end.

Still I do not feel ready to worship him yet.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 05:12 AM   #33
Sizzle
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 647
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Max Baer is a Boxing God - Worhsip Him!!

Joe Louis destroyed him, in a fight he claimed to be "in the best shape of his life" for.

He was virtually murdered by the "modern" fast combination-punching style he came up against.

He had a powerful right hand but it was dreadfully slow and telegraphed, and this was further highlighted when he came up against a sharp, accurate puncher like Joe Louis.

He lost to the title to the least-skilled heavyweight champion we've ever had, a battling upright offbalance slugger who telegraphed his shots and had lost a bucketload of bouts to journeymen. I hate to say it because I was touched by his movie and his story, but this is how I see it.

His defense was virtually non-existent and his hands were held way too low, which I guess he could get away with in his era, but not when he met a heavyweight that could throw fast, sharp effective blows.

What was his best win? Carnera?
Sizzle is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 05:23 AM   #34
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 20,571
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Max Baer is a Boxing God - Worhsip Him!!

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sizzle
Joe Louis destroyed him, in a fight he claimed to be "in the best shape of his life" for.

He was virtually murdered by the "modern" fast combination-punching style he came up against.
In fairness Louis did the same to to a lot of verry good boxers.

Quote:
He lost to the title to the least-skilled heavyweight champion we've ever had, a battling upright offbalance slugger who telegraphed his shots and had lost a bucketload of bouts to journeymen. I hate to say it because I was touched by his movie and his story, but this is how I see it.
The traditional story is that Baer lost to Braddock because he clowned through the fight and trained on women and champagne.

Recent research puts foerward another explanation. Baer claimed that he broke his right hand in the third round and that he broke his left hand in the fith. This would have left him virtualy helpless for the last ten rounds. Post fight medical reports confirm that Baer did indeed break both hands.

Quote:
His defense was virtually non-existent and his hands were held way too low, which I guess he could get away with in his era, but not when he met a heavyweight that could throw fast, sharp effective blows.
There were heavyweights that could do that hiding behind every bush in Max Baers era. There were probably a lot more technicaly proficient heavyweights than there are today.

He got away with it because he had a style that worked.

Quote:
What was his best win? Carnera?
Schmeling.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 07:39 AM   #35
UpWithEvil
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 339
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Max Baer is a Boxing God - Worhsip Him!!

Quote:
He lost to the title to the least-skilled heavyweight champion we've ever had
John Ruiz?
UpWithEvil is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 09:13 AM   #36
Sizzle
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 647
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Max Baer is a Boxing God - Worhsip Him!!

[quote=janitor]
Quote:


In fairness Louis did the same to to a lot of verry good boxers.



The traditional story is that Baer lost to Braddock because he clowned through the fight and trained on women and champagne.

Recent research puts foerward another explanation. Baer claimed that he broke his right hand in the third round and that he broke his left hand in the fith. This would have left him virtualy helpless for the last ten rounds. Post fight medical reports confirm that Baer did indeed break both hands.



There were heavyweights that could do that hiding behind every bush in Max Baers era. There were probably a lot more technicaly proficient heavyweights than there are today.

He got away with it because he had a style that worked.



Schmeling.
To be honest with you, it seems to me Joe Louis' excellent sharp combination punching was somewhat pioneering - Here was a 200lbs man destroying men left right and centre, many of whom outweighed him considerably. I know I don't need to tell you what Louis accomplished.

I find it hard to believe that there were heavyweights hiding behind every bush that could put punches together like Lewis. Certainly the top tier fighters I've watched for myself, Baer, Braddock, Galento etc tended to throw heavy shots, but delivered with abysmal handspeed, predictable clubbing combinations (Not the beautiful leading jab-hook we saw from Louis in that clip posted the other week) and worst of all not delivered in any sort of sharp, concise manner (very telegraphed).

Dempsey was a truly explosive puncher with concrete in both hands and very impressive handspeed, but he did not put his punches together like Joe Louis.

Anyway, my point is merely that Baer is one of the weaker heavyweight champions, and that he was limited in the sense that he was never going to be able to beat Joe Louis, no matter how hard he trained. I don't he ever would have been a top10 heavyweight, but that's my opinion. I appreciate what he accomplished, but I don't see that fighter being particularly successful in the modern heavyweight circuit.
Sizzle is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 10:42 AM   #37
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 20,571
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Max Baer is a Boxing God - Worhsip Him!!

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sizzle
To be honest with you, it seems to me Joe Louis' excellent sharp combination punching was somewhat pioneering - Here was a 200lbs man destroying men left right and centre, many of whom outweighed him considerably. I know I don't need to tell you what Louis accomplished.
I have never been sold on the idea of Louis being a pioneer. He merely did what others had done before with greater athletic talent.

Once in a blue moon you get a heavyweight who can move like a welterweight such as Ali or Tyson and Louis is a similar athletic talent as indeed was Dempsey in my opinion.

Quote:
I find it hard to believe that there were heavyweights hiding behind every bush that could put punches together like Lewis.
Sure there were. It is just that most of them were comparatively light punchers.

Quote:
Certainly the top tier fighters I've watched for myself, Baer, Braddock, Galento etc
These might not be the best examples to showcase the technical talent of the era. Just because John Ruiz has poor technique dose not mean that Floyd Mayweather is a stand alone pioneer.

Quote:
Anyway, my point is merely that Baer is one of the weaker heavyweight champions, and that he was limited in the sense that he was never going to be able to beat Joe Louis, no matter how hard he trained.
No argument from me here.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 10:51 AM   #38
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 20,571
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Max Baer is a Boxing God - Worhsip Him!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sizzle
I don't see that fighter being particularly successful in the modern heavyweight circuit.
Who do you see aresting his rise to the top?
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 12:56 PM   #39
RAMPAGE0017
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 814
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Max Baer is a Boxing God - Worhsip Him!!

People actually think Braddock whooped Baer's ass? It looked to me like Baer handed him the title on a silver platter. No disrespect to either fighter, but it was an awfully boring fight, only thing that made it watchable was Baer's clowning around.


Other than that, Baer was a dangerous fighter, but way too limited. I don't think he would've beaten Louis even if he 100% into boxing. Baer's only real weapon was his right hand, his defense wasn't all that, and he looks like he fought straight up a lot. I've never seen him bend his knees, or really get any of his weight on the ground.
RAMPAGE0017 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2007, 05:28 PM   #40
Zakman
ESB's Chinchecker
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The Ivory Tower
Posts: 12,966
vCash: 588
Default Re: Max Baer is a Boxing God - Worhsip Him!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by UpWithEvil
John Ruiz?
Obviously, we're talking linear here. But if belholders were included, Ruiz EASILY takes those "honors."
Zakman is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 08:41 AM   #41
JIm Broughton
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 386
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Max Baer is a Boxing God - Worhsip Him!!

If Baer had a good jab then he could have turned out to be an ATG. He had all the physical tools but the wrong style. At 6'3" with an 80" reach, he should've employed a good stiff jab to set up his potent right hand instead of stalking and throwing a telegraphed right hand. If he was around today with say Emmanuel Steward as his trainer then you're looking at an ATG in the making because he would be fighting with a more modern style.
JIm Broughton is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 08:55 AM   #42
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 20,571
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Max Baer is a Boxing God - Worhsip Him!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JIm Broughton
If Baer had a good jab then he could have turned out to be an ATG. He had all the physical tools but the wrong style. At 6'3" with an 80" reach, he should've employed a good stiff jab to set up his potent right hand instead of stalking and throwing a telegraphed right hand. If he was around today with say Emmanuel Steward as his trainer then you're looking at an ATG in the making because he would be fighting with a more modern style.
Baers jab wasn't bad actualy.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 09:05 AM   #43
The Whaler
My dog be thorough.
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: n. A place where something is or could be located; a site.
Posts: 635
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Max Baer is a Boxing God - Worhsip Him!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by salsanchezfan
............They were so off-base about him in that film it was ridiculous, but from a purely film-making standpoint, I can see the need for a villain in that role. I don't think it was needed, frankly, as the villain was aptly played by circumstance, but this made it easier for the public as a whole to digest.
Ron Howard is sort of a hack, so he turned Baer into a psycho killer. In fact, if Cinderella Man was a fictional script instead of being based on a true story, it would be pretty cheesy. It goes to show how incredible a person Braddock was, and how compelling a life he led.
The Whaler is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 09:06 AM   #44
The Whaler
My dog be thorough.
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: n. A place where something is or could be located; a site.
Posts: 635
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Max Baer is a Boxing God - Worhsip Him!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by salsanchezfan
How can you not love Maxie? A clown literally to his final breath.


There is the story of him in a hotel room at the end of his life when he had a heart attack and called the front desk for help. They said they'd send up the house doctor.

"No, dummy," he said, "I need a people doctor!"
What's so funny about that? People are not houses.
The Whaler is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 09:19 AM   #45
Grebfan9
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 224
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Max Baer is a Boxing God - Worhsip Him!!

Hi Zakman,

There are THREE areas of boxing that Baer often neglected.

First, though he had a hard jab (as evidenced in the Schmeling
fight), I don't feel that he utilized his jab enough. If he jabbed
more, he would have been able to set up his right hand and
land with greater frequency.

Second, Baer should have punched to the body more often.
Against boxers like Tommy Loughran, body punching would
have improved Baer's chances greatly.

Baer did employ a VERY EFFECTIVE body punching attack in his
pier brawl with Tony Galento. Baer put a heavy hurt on Two-Ton
Tony with some really hard punches to the body.

Third, Baer could have tightened up his defense a bit. True,
Baer had a very good chin, but if he had a better defense, he
may not have gotten cut up and TKOED in his 1st fight with
Lou Nova.

As stated, Baer did, at times, display an excellent jab as well as
a crunching body attack. If he combined these with a better
defense, with greater concentration on his training, Baer would
have been more feared than Sonny Liston!!!


Grebfan9
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakman
Easily top five in HW chins and top five in punching power too. IF Max took boxing seriously he would have been a top ten ATG, no doubt. Dempsey thought so - but Baer's laicisdaisical training habits, love of the nightlife and the ladies frustrated Jack no end.

Baer said it all when he said he had "a million dollar body and a ten cent brain." Still, even with that ten cent brain he was able to do pretty well on ABILITY ALONE.

Baer is - obviously - my favorite Old Time HW. ANd part of it is his "madcap" personaility. BUt what if Baer had, say George Foreman or Sonny Liston's brain. Would he have ruled the 30s and given Joe Louis a serious run for his money??
Grebfan9 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013