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View Poll Results: Very Good or Great? Volume 6: Frank Shamrock
Very Good 8 32.00%
Great 17 68.00%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-19-2011, 06:50 PM   #1
Popkins
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Default Very Good or Great? Volume 6: Frank Shamrock

Greetings MMA posters,

this is the 6th in a series of threads I'll make on this forum, basically ripping off the excellent Classic Forum boxing poster Boxed Ears, who has a series in the Classic called 'Very Good Or Great', where he asks regulars whether they consider some fighters to merit the description 'great' fighters, or whether they are merely 'very good'.

MMA Volume 1 was Sean Sherk, see thread:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

MMA Volume 2 was Vitor Belfort, see thread:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

MMA Volume 3 was Ricardo Arona, see thread:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

MMA Volume 4 was Rich Franklin, see thread:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

MMA Volume 5 was Tito Ortiz, see thread:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]



The choice this time is Frank Shamrock.



Some relevant info about Frank:


- Frank won the interim King Of Pancrase Championship, then became the first UFC light-heavyweight champion, making four winning title defences, later won the WEC light-heavyweight title, and the Strikeforce middleweight crown.



- Frank lost ten times. In 1990s Pancrase, he lost to Bas Rutten twice, Manabu Yamada, Masakatsu Funaki, Yuki Kondo and Kiuma Kunioku, then to John Luber in the 'Superbrawl' promotion. Years later as Frank neared the end of his career he was disqualified against Renzo Gracie, and then stopped by both Cung Le and Nick Diaz.



- The most important factor is of course resume, the guys Frank has beaten. Make your assessment of this list:

Tito Ortiz - UFC, 1999 - sub(punches)
Bas Rutten - Pancrase, 1994 - points
Jeremy Horn - UFC, 1998 - sub
Enson Inoue - Vale Tudo, 1997 - TechDQ



- Other factors to consider:

His record is 25 wins, 9 losses and 2 draws, with 14 submissions, 5 decisions, 4 knockouts and 2 by DQ, against 3 decision losses, 3 TKO defeats, 2 submissions and 1 by DQ.




I look forward to your verdicts and explanations, and hope to continue this series shortly
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Old 08-19-2011, 06:58 PM   #2
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Default Re: Very Good or Great? Volume 6: Frank Shamrock

Set the standard for modern MMA in America in the days of Tank Abbot and the move to MMA from NHB.

Great athlete who started of as a sub wrestler, but made the 1st real effort, along with the likes of Bas Rutten to round up his skills so he could fight anywhere

GREAT fighter, but lack of top names in his prime means we can only really rank him as very good
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Old 08-19-2011, 09:39 PM   #3
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Default Re: Very Good or Great? Volume 6: Frank Shamrock

Lack of top names, but skill wise puts him up there.

Last edited by zarman; 08-20-2011 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 08-20-2011, 01:50 AM   #4
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Default Re: Very Good or Great? Volume 6: Frank Shamrock

Here's a guy that was truly great but again, years from now he would just be remembered as good. I mean we're laughing at Royce Gracie now and that was just 15 years ago.

Frank is one of my favorite fighter.
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Old 08-20-2011, 03:36 AM   #5
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Default Re: Very Good or Great? Volume 6: Frank Shamrock

he is a legend so very good.
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Old 08-20-2011, 07:09 AM   #6
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Default Re: Very Good or Great? Volume 6: Frank Shamrock

Great. Perhaps not resume wise, but skill wise, he's an ATG easily.
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:25 AM   #7
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Default Re: Very Good or Great? Volume 6: Frank Shamrock

I'm inclined to pick great because Frank fought in the infant era of MMA and yet he had a style that was close to the modern form of fighting. What makes it a hard call for me, however, are the losses to less-than-stellar competition and the lack of big names on his resume. Rutten is probably his best win closely followed by Tito but Tito, as I stated before, is highly overrated. Also, Bas beat Frank more than Frank beat Bas so that kind of gets thrown out, as well.

I'm going to pick great because he did hold UFC hardware, he did revolutionize cross-training, and he did beat the next generation's superstar in Tito even if he was overrated. What sells me on great is the simple fact that this dude debuted a year after UFC 1 and he looks and fights nothing like the dudes that were rocking out at that show in mullets and parachute pants doing rolling karate kicks and the like.
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:33 AM   #8
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Default Re: Very Good or Great? Volume 6: Frank Shamrock

Difficult pick for me, but I decided on great.

I wonder how he would do in the modern MMA era? Im guessing he would do very well if he was back in his best years.

Watching Frank make Tito Ortiz his bitch will always make me happy. Thank you for that Frank
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:36 AM   #9
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Default Re: Very Good or Great? Volume 6: Frank Shamrock

It's an interesting question how he would do today. I think if you combined his Pre-Retirement ground game (or atleast, he was more willing to go to the ground, trying to out strike Cung Li for example) with his post retirement striking he'd be one of the best in the world

Probably has difficulty with the top class wrestlers and strikers at the 185-205 weight range, but he'd have more options as to where he's comfortable taking the fight
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:38 AM   #10
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Default Re: Very Good or Great? Volume 6: Frank Shamrock

Quote:
Originally Posted by yaca you View Post
Difficult pick for me, but I decided on great.

I wonder how he would do in the modern MMA era? Im guessing he would do very well if he was back in his best years.

Watching Frank make Tito Ortiz his bitch will always make me happy. Thank you for that Frank
HAte to say it but Tito was making him his bitch before pulling out that sub. And that was a very green Tito.

Frank was a great fighter. The way he disposed of Zinoviev and Jackson were stuff og legends. He was the prototypical MMA guy who was competent at everything. As of now he would be remembered as very good. 10 years from now he would be remembered as good. 25 years from now, people might chuckle watching some of his fights.
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Old 08-20-2011, 11:56 AM   #11
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Default Re: Very Good or Great? Volume 6: Frank Shamrock

Anyone else finding it hard to put some of these fighters into greats or very good? For the era they were about in they were clearly great but compared to now most of them would be beaten by a fair few easily.
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Old 08-20-2011, 12:00 PM   #12
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Default Re: Very Good or Great? Volume 6: Frank Shamrock

Quote:
Originally Posted by LHL View Post
Anyone else finding it hard to put some of these fighters into greats or very good? For the era they were about in they were clearly great but compared to now most of them would be beaten by a fair few easily.
Yup. This was the first one I've labeled great so far because he held a major title and he was a protoype of the modern fighter even as far back as '94, a year removed from mullets and Royce Gracie.
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Old 08-20-2011, 12:09 PM   #13
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Default Re: Very Good or Great? Volume 6: Frank Shamrock

Quote:
Originally Posted by LHL View Post
Anyone else finding it hard to put some of these fighters into greats or very good? For the era they were about in they were clearly great but compared to now most of them would be beaten by a fair few easily.


Thats why Popkin picks em

This was the first one i voted on - Frank was definitely a Great

Why no mention of his victory over Henderson?
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Old 08-20-2011, 12:17 PM   #14
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Default Re: Very Good or Great? Volume 6: Frank Shamrock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beouche View Post
Thats why Popkin picks em

This was the first one i voted on - Frank was definitely a Great

Why no mention of his victory over Henderson?
Grappling exhibition, so not really MMA. I posted it in a Wandy v FS thread as an counter too he cant deal with wrestlers

On the subject of Great or Good. Im a big fan a Frank, but I voted Very Good when others I didnt expect voted Great

Go figure
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Old 08-20-2011, 01:22 PM   #15
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Default Re: Very Good or Great? Volume 6: Frank Shamrock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo View Post
Grappling exhibition, so not really MMA. I posted it in a Wandy v FS thread as an counter too he cant deal with wrestlers

On the subject of Great or Good. Im a big fan a Frank, but I voted Very Good when others I didnt expect voted Great

Go figure


Guess ATG Henderson squealing in agony was just for the "exhibition" then - he was such a puny fag back then

On that subject, Frank is indeed a great, i was surprised to see you voting otherwise
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