I died in same hospital,15 monthe earlier ?

[young griffo]

Originally Posted by hhascup

When Rocky Castellani passed away, I drove to Atlantic City andI did the Eulogy and rung the bell "9" times. The very next week, I did the samething at Joey Giardello's funeral. I was the only boxing person at Rocky's and 1 of only 4 at Joey's.

Today, I picked up Lou Duva and cutman Darren Antola and I drove them to the funeral of George Benton in Philly.

It's sad that all these great boxing people are passing and sadder still that so few boxing people took the time out to pay their respects.

Well done to you hhascup you're clearly one of the really good ones

[hhascup]

Originally Posted by young griffo

It's sad that all these great boxing people are passing and sadder still that so few boxing people took the time out to pay their respects.

Well done to you hhascup you're clearly one of the really good ones

Thanks so much for the kind words.

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

Henry correct as usual.It was Jimmy Doyle who died after being kod by the peak Ray Robinson inn June,1947. He was unconscious for three days and passed away at St.Vincent Charities Hospital in Cleveland.By a strange coincidence,Fifteen months before Jimmy Doyle was kod by Artie Levine,and was unconscious for fifteen minutes and was taken to the same hospital in Cleveland where he died after Robinson kod him. Today Jimmy Doyle would have been forced to retire after his terrible concussion after Artie Levine kod him.
A sidenote h--A few months after Dole suffered a concussion at the hands of hard punching Artie Levine[who had Ray Robinson on the canvas in 1946 for 15-17 seconds],I saw a pasty faced Jimmy Doyle training at Stillman's gym in NY.I remember thinking that his face was devoid of color, boxing in a similar style as Jack Johnson, who gave Doyle advice when Doyle was making a name for himself. When I saw him looking sickly, he probably was brain-damaged,but amazingly won 5 bouts in a row after being kod by Artie Levine.But in facing the 1947 edition of the greatest fighter I ever saw Robinson,Jimmy Doyle fought one time too much.

So Walker Smith was KOd by Artie Levine ?

[hhascup]

Originally Posted by frankenfrank

So Walker Smith was KOd by Artie Levine ?

On November 6, 1946, Levine challenged [ame="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Ray_Robinson"]Sugar Ray Robinson[/ame].[URL="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artie_Levine#cite_note-google1-2"][3][/URL] Robinson claimed Levine hit him with the hardest punch of his career when he knocked [ame="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Ray"]Sugar Ray[/ame] down and out for a 21-second [ame="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_count"]long count[/ame].
Instead of directing Levine back to his corner, the referee walked him to his corner then returned about 10 seconds later to begin the count on Robinson. Robinson came back and KO'd Levine in the tenth round.
Of the fight, [ame="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ring_Magazine"]The Ring Magazine[/ame] wrote:

Sugar ... was almost kayoed in the fourth round. A left hook, followed by a right cross, both to the chin, put (him) down and almost out... Sugar rose unsteadily and called upon all his ring skill and stamina to last out the round...Sugar had several other close calls during the course of the evening. Artie's left hooks and resounding right crosses occasionally found their marks and with telling effect. Robinson's class and body punching were taking their toll from the heavier Levine as the bout progressed. Sugar started the tenth with knockout intent. With the round about two minutes gone, Sugar paralyzed Artie with a right to the solar plexus. Then Sugar became a 'killer,' throwing punches with reckless abandon to both head and body with the result that Artie was beaten to the floor.

(The Ring, January 1947, page 34)
It is unknown what effect this victory could have had upon both the careers of Levine or Robinson. It is possible to speculate that since Levine had actually knocked [ame="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Ray"]Sugar Ray[/ame] out in this fight that he may have done it again in a rematch, altering the history of boxings greatest [ame="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_for_pound"]pound for pound[/ame] fighter.

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by hhascup

On November 6, 1946, Levine challenged [URL="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Ray_Robinson"]Sugar Ray Robinson[/URL].[URL="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artie_Levine#cite_note-google1-2"][3][/URL] Robinson claimed Levine hit him with the hardest punch of his career when he knocked [URL="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Ray"]Sugar Ray[/URL] down and out for a 21-second [URL="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_count"]long count[/URL].
Instead of directing Levine back to his corner, the referee walked him to his corner then returned about 10 seconds later to begin the count on Robinson. Robinson came back and KO'd Levine in the tenth round.
Of the fight, [URL="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ring_Magazine"]The Ring Magazine[/URL] wrote:

Sugar ... was almost kayoed in the fourth round. A left hook, followed by a right cross, both to the chin, put (him) down and almost out... Sugar rose unsteadily and called upon all his ring skill and stamina to last out the round...Sugar had several other close calls during the course of the evening. Artie's left hooks and resounding right crosses occasionally found their marks and with telling effect. Robinson's class and body punching were taking their toll from the heavier Levine as the bout progressed. Sugar started the tenth with knockout intent. With the round about two minutes gone, Sugar paralyzed Artie with a right to the solar plexus. Then Sugar became a 'killer,' throwing punches with reckless abandon to both head and body with the result that Artie was beaten to the floor.

(The Ring, January 1947, page 34)
It is unknown what effect this victory could have had upon both the careers of Levine or Robinson. It is possible to speculate that since Levine had actually knocked [URL="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Ray"]Sugar Ray[/URL] out in this fight that he may have done it again in a rematch, altering the history of boxings greatest [URL="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_for_pound"]pound for pound[/URL] fighter.

Thank you very much , it is all in boxrec already except from the very important part that that long count took 21 seconds . It is a KO*2+1 .
But people here will go on to excuse it . If Levine got a 21 seconds long count in that fight , I am pretty sure he would have lasted the distance .
The first to KO his opponent won the fight in my book

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by hhascup

On November 6, 1946, Levine challenged [URL="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Ray_Robinson"]Sugar Ray Robinson[/URL].[URL="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artie_Levine#cite_note-google1-2"][3][/URL] Robinson claimed Levine hit him with the hardest punch of his career when he knocked [URL="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Ray"]Sugar Ray[/URL] down and out for a 21-second [URL="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_count"]long count[/URL].
Instead of directing Levine back to his corner, the referee walked him to his corner then returned about 10 seconds later to begin the count on Robinson. Robinson came back and KO'd Levine in the tenth round.
Of the fight, [URL="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ring_Magazine"]The Ring Magazine[/URL] wrote:

Sugar ... was almost kayoed in the fourth round. A left hook, followed by a right cross, both to the chin, put (him) down and almost out... Sugar rose unsteadily and called upon all his ring skill and stamina to last out the round...Sugar had several other close calls during the course of the evening. Artie's left hooks and resounding right crosses occasionally found their marks and with telling effect. Robinson's class and body punching were taking their toll from the heavier Levine as the bout progressed. Sugar started the tenth with knockout intent. With the round about two minutes gone, Sugar paralyzed Artie with a right to the solar plexus. Then Sugar became a 'killer,' throwing punches with reckless abandon to both head and body with the result that Artie was beaten to the floor.

(The Ring, January 1947, page 34)
It is unknown what effect this victory could have had upon both the careers of Levine or Robinson. It is possible to speculate that since Levine had actually knocked [URL="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar_Ray"]Sugar Ray[/URL] out in this fight that he may have done it again in a rematch, altering the history of boxings greatest [URL="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_for_pound"]pound for pound[/URL] fighter.

Henry,great info on that fight between Ray Robinson/Artie Levine "long count". I saw Artie Levine several times in Ny. He could hit very hard, for sure.
But this fight just reinforces my absolute conviction that while Ray Robinson surely was the best all" around fighter " ever, and most beautiful to watch ringside, as I luckily did several times, Harry Greb ,because of his
astounding success against the "big boys",many all-time greats,was the
better P4P fighter than Ray Robinson was. If an Artie Levine had Robinson on queer street for 17-20 seconds, A Harry Greb would have overwhelmed
Artie Levine with ease. I have said this before,but it bears repeating, Harry Greb at his best, beats every fighter Ray Robinson ever fought, no doubt,
but Ray Robinson great as he was could not have beaten the larger and heavier greats as Tunney, Gibbons, Loughran, Dillon, Rosenbloom, Miske,
Brennan etc. No way. Thus, how beautiful Ray Robinson was to watch ,
Harry Greb with his once in a lifetime windmill style accomplished MORE.

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

Henry,great info on that fight between Ray Robinson/Artie Levine "long count". I saw Artie Levine several times in Ny. He could hit very hard, for sure.
But this fight just reinforces my absolute conviction that while Ray Robinson surely was the best all" around fighter " ever, and most beautiful to watch ringside, as I luckily did several times, Harry Greb ,because of his
astounding success against the "big boys",many all-time greats,was the
better P4P fighter than Ray Robinson was. If an Artie Levine had Robinson on queer street for 17-20 seconds, A Harry Greb would have overwhelmed
Artie Levine with ease. I have said this before,but it bears repeating, Harry Greb at his best, beats every fighter Ray Robinson ever fought, no doubt,
but Ray Robinson great as he was could not have beaten the larger and heavier greats as Tunney, Gibbons, Loughran, Dillon, Rosenbloom, Miske,
Brennan etc. No way. Thus, how beautiful Ray Robinson was to watch ,
Harry Greb with his once in a lifetime windmill style accomplished MORE.

I c your argument but then Walker Smith would not have lost to Tiger Flowers nor to some of d others that outpointed Greb . Take into account that Greb was naturally heavier than Smith .
Smith is overrated p4p though , and Greb is overrated even more .
Smith avenged many of his distance losses with stoppage wins , which is the way to go .
Greb could not have done it .
Langford > Greb , Langford > Smith
and you can replace Langford with Tyson , Armstrong and yes : James Toney . He was never stopped in his boxing career , despite never cheating , never receiving a long count , slacking in training , having an eating disorder , taking risky fights while out of fighting shape , being severely undersized since his cruiserweight days .

[klompton]

Originally Posted by frankenfrank

I c your argument but then Walker Smith would not have lost to Tiger Flowers nor to some of d others that outpointed Greb . Take into account that Greb was naturally heavier than Smith .
Smith is overrated p4p though , and Greb is overrated even more .
Smith avenged many of his distance losses with stoppage wins , which is the way to go .
Greb could not have done it .
Langford > Greb , Langford > Smith
and you can replace Langford with Tyson , Armstrong and yes : James Toney . He was never stopped in his boxing career , despite never cheating , never receiving a long count , slacking in training , having an eating disorder , taking risky fights while out of fighting shape , being severely undersized since his cruiserweight days .

Robinson wouldnt have lost to Flowers? Thats a bold statement. A prime Flowers may very well have beaten a 32 year old Robinson who was blind in eye and had the 300 fights worth of mileage on him. Hell he might have beaten him anyway. Flowers was a very big middleweight, very strong, and very fast, with a busy style. He didnt have the best chin in the world but it also wasnt so weak that its a given Robinson stops him. If Robinson cant stop Flowers its entirely possible for Flowers to win a decision. Robinson wasnt nearly the KO puncher against true 160lbers and Flowers had faced enough big punchers even above 160 to show that he wasnt a total pushover. The majority of his stoppage losses came well before his prime and against bigger men. During his prime he was only stopped by Jack Delaney (who would also have been a handful for Robinson).

Greb overrated? If anything Greb has been criminally underrated for 80 years. Discussion ended, someone who doesnt know what hes talking about...

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by klompton

Robinson wouldnt have lost to Flowers? Thats a bold statement. A prime Flowers may very well have beaten a 32 year old Robinson who was blind in eye and had the 300 fights worth of mileage on him. Hell he might have beaten him anyway. Flowers was a very big middleweight, very strong, and very fast, with a busy style. He didnt have the best chin in the world but it also wasnt so weak that its a given Robinson stops him. If Robinson cant stop Flowers its entirely possible for Flowers to win a decision. Robinson wasnt nearly the KO puncher against true 160lbers and Flowers had faced enough big punchers even above 160 to show that he wasnt a total pushover. The majority of his stoppage losses came well before his prime and against bigger men. During his prime he was only stopped by Jack Delaney (who would also have been a handful for Robinson).

Greb overrated? If anything Greb has been criminally underrated for 80 years. Discussion ended, someone who doesnt know what hes talking about...

I suppose you didn't mean McClellan , Eubanks , Collins & Toney when you wrote 'true 160lbers' , but he did KO Turpin & Fullmer and stopped LaMotta , didn't he ?
Did Flowers have a better chin than them ? was he any better than them ? if so , what do you base it upon , his decisions over a damaged Greb ?
Also I didn't claim in any part of my post that Smith would've stopped him , if I did , show it to me . My only claim/intention was that he wouldn't have lost to him .

[burt bienstock]

Originally Posted by frankenfrank

I c your argument but then Walker Smith would not have lost to Tiger Flowers nor to some of d others that outpointed Greb . Take into account that Greb was naturally heavier than Smith .
Smith is overrated p4p though , and Greb is overrated even more .
Smith avenged many of his distance losses with stoppage wins , which is the way to go .
Greb could not have done it .
Langford > Greb , Langford > Smith
and you can replace Langford with Tyson , Armstrong and yes : James Toney . He was never stopped in his boxing career , despite never cheating , never receiving a long count , slacking in training , having an eating disorder , taking risky fights while out of fighting shape , being severely undersized since his cruiserweight days .

To insinuate that Harry Greb was "overated",as well as "Walker Smith",is to show that you are not a serious thinking boxing person worth debating with.I respect your right to give your opinion ,along with myself ,or anyone on ESB, but A Harry Greb,with 300 bouts,beating everyone from middleweights to heavyweights almost bi-weekly ,spotting all-time great fighters 10-30 pounds,DUCKING NO ONE [with one eye for the last 3rd of his career] deserves not to be called "overated",by any stretch of imagination. And to say Ray Robinson[Walker Smith to U] should be also
called overated is too much to bear from someone as I, who happened to see the marvelous Robinson in his glorious prime...Their great legacy's deserve better, from you or anyone else. Cheers...

[klompton]

Originally Posted by frankenfrank

I suppose you didn't mean McClellan , Eubanks , Collins & Toney when you wrote 'true 160lbers' , but he did KO Turpin & Fullmer and stopped LaMotta , didn't he ?
Did Flowers have a better chin than them ? was he any better than them ? if so , what do you base it upon , his decisions over a damaged Greb ?
Also I didn't claim in any part of my post that Smith would've stopped him , if I did , show it to me . My only claim/intention was that he wouldn't have lost to him .

Flowers was a different type of fighter than those guys. He wasnt a face first slugger who was going to stand there to get hit. He was also bigger than them with the possible exception of Turpin who himself was a big MW and who incidently defeated Robinson. Id certainly say if Turpin could do it Flowers could. And if Fullmer could do it Flowers could. And if LaMotta could do it Flowers could. You see, while Robinson defeated those men, he also lost to them which suggests that Flowers could beat him as well. Styles make fights, its not necessarily about who is "better" (which is a relative term) but who is better suited and at MW with his size, style, stamina, and business I could easily see him outpointing Robinson. You state you werent claiming that Robinson wouldnt necessarily KO Flowers just that he wouldnt lose to Flowers. Fine, I say he has a better shot of winning a fight with Flowers by KO than by decision. I wonder if you would have said the same thing about Randy Turpin before they fought. Nobody is unbeatable and Flowers was a hell of a fighter who could give any MW fits on his best day.

[klompton]

Originally Posted by frankenfrank

can replace Langford with Tyson , Armstrong and yes : James Toney . He was never stopped in his boxing career , despite never cheating , never receiving a long count , slacking in training , having an eating disorder , taking risky fights while out of fighting shape , being severely undersized since his cruiserweight days .

So Toney never cheated??? I seem to recall two TWO(!!!) positive steroids tests, and multiple gift decisions in his career. And an eating disorder? Since when is a lack of discipline an eating disorder? Bulimia is an eating disorder. Anorexia is an eating disorder. Being a fat ****ing slob who refuses to train with conviction despite being a professional athlete is called being a fat ****ing slob. Thats what moms who dont want to admit that they and their children are too lazy to get off their asses and get some exercise say: "Oh your not fat honey, you cant help it, you have an eating disorder!"

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by klompton

So Toney never cheated??? I seem to recall two TWO(!!!) positive steroids tests, and multiple gift decisions in his career. And an eating disorder? Since when is a lack of discipline an eating disorder? Bulimia is an eating disorder. Anorexia is an eating disorder. Being a fat ****ing slob who refuses to train with conviction despite being a professional athlete is called being a fat ****ing slob. Thats what moms who dont want to admit that they and their children are too lazy to get off their asses and get some exercise say: "Oh your not fat honey, you cant help it, you have an eating disorder!"

Almost every1 takes steroids for the last 20 years , and probably even since earlier times . Toney was simply caught but he is not d only 1 (Roid Jones , Danny Batchelder , Derrick Harmon , Tony Tubbs , Vitali Klitschko , Francois Botha were caught too) . Others admitted to doing so like Morison & Mosley .
According to your post here you are probably doubting Evander's use of them .
Taking steroids is not a cheat since long ago .
It's just not putting up to what your opponent does / is expected to do .

Regarding the eating disorder , believe me , 1 does not have 2 train 2b able 2 remain trim . Toney has been having bulimia since b4 d beginning of his amateur career , he was a 200 lbs quarterback for all of his 5'8" and prior 19 years of age .

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by klompton

Flowers was a different type of fighter than those guys. He wasnt a face first slugger who was going to stand there to get hit. He was also bigger than them with the possible exception of Turpin who himself was a big MW and who incidently defeated Robinson. Id certainly say if Turpin could do it Flowers could. And if Fullmer could do it Flowers could. And if LaMotta could do it Flowers could. You see, while Robinson defeated those men, he also lost to them which suggests that Flowers could beat him as well. Styles make fights, its not necessarily about who is "better" (which is a relative term) but who is better suited and at MW with his size, style, stamina, and business I could easily see him outpointing Robinson. You state you werent claiming that Robinson wouldnt necessarily KO Flowers just that he wouldnt lose to Flowers. Fine, I say he has a better shot of winning a fight with Flowers by KO than by decision. I wonder if you would have said the same thing about Randy Turpin before they fought. Nobody is unbeatable and Flowers was a hell of a fighter who could give any MW fits on his best day.

So you overrate Flowers . I didn't find in your post the answer to my question of based on what do you think Flowers could have beaten Smith .
Flowers was much less resilient than those "face first sluggers " even despite of his style .

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by burt bienstock

To insinuate that Harry Greb was "overated",as well as "Walker Smith",is to show that you are not a serious thinking boxing person worth debating with.I respect your right to give your opinion ,along with myself ,or anyone on ESB, but A Harry Greb,with 300 bouts,beating everyone from middleweights to heavyweights almost bi-weekly ,spotting all-time great fighters 10-30 pounds,DUCKING NO ONE [with one eye for the last 3rd of his career] deserves not to be called "overated",by any stretch of imagination. And to say Ray Robinson[Walker Smith to U] should be also
called overated is too much to bear from someone as I, who happened to see the marvelous Robinson in his glorious prime...Their great legacy's deserve better, from you or anyone else. Cheers...

I couldn't find even 1 worthy fighter that Greb managed 2 stop despite of all the length of his career and his dirty way of fighting .