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Old 12-15-2007, 02:54 AM   #16
JohnThomas1
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

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Hopkins is muslim? Show me the source that said that
When asked what keeps Bernard Hopkins back, The Executioner replied, I dont know, maybe because, Im a Muslim. Maybe because, Im Black. Maybe because I changed my life around and became a role model instead of a thug, who knows? But one thing I can say is that they wont beat me mentally. They wont beat me spiritually because, I am a man. A man sacrifices everything he has to.
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Old 12-15-2007, 02:55 AM   #17
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

Hamed flaunts his beliefs, unlike two other Muslim boxers backed by HBO, Bernard Hopkins and Hasim Rahman, both champions. Hopkins has been a Muslim since leaving jail 13 years ago but at a press conference before fighting Felix Trinidad in September, he had to scold journalists. 'We are not all the same type of Muslims,' he said gently in reference to 11 September. Rahman, who fights Lennox Lewis next Saturday in Las Vegas, has been a Muslim since birth but he also plays down his religion. He prays six times each day but he does not take his beliefs to work with him.
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Old 12-15-2007, 03:19 AM   #18
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
When asked what keeps Bernard Hopkins back, The Executioner replied, I dont know, maybe because, Im a Muslim. Maybe because, Im Black. Maybe because I changed my life around and became a role model instead of a thug, who knows? But one thing I can say is that they wont beat me mentally. They wont beat me spiritually because, I am a man. A man sacrifices everything he has to.
Looks like Hopkins is Muslim... good for him!
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Old 12-15-2007, 04:31 AM   #19
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

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Looks like Hopkins is Muslim... good for him!
Yeah, i looked it up after McGrain asked the question. Seems like there's a fair amount of evidence the original poster might be correct.
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Old 12-15-2007, 05:39 AM   #20
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

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tyson was a defensive master!
Tyson had a limited array of defensive techniques. What could he do? Slip, duck, that's about it. He never liked to block much, he didn't parry a whole lot, shifts and leans violated his style, his feet never seemed to get him out of trouble. No, Tyson was far from a defensive master; he was good at avoiding jabs and countering, but his whole set up was too rehearsed. In random order, he'd just perform the bag and pad drills he'd learned in the gym. No initiative.
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Old 12-15-2007, 05:49 AM   #21
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

^^^

Very true, he had great defence when being barked at with orders by his corner but when he dropped the people who knew his style(Rooney) he was a shell and forgot the drills, headmovement and even the combinations, he even gave up on his jab.
You could see that his skills were diminishing within a few fights.
Which is incredible that he was told all these things for years and within a few fights seemingly forgot half of it!
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Old 12-15-2007, 05:53 AM   #22
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

Reminds of Rocky II when Balboa forgets how to skip.
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Old 12-15-2007, 06:49 AM   #23
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

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Originally Posted by Manassa
Tyson had a limited array of defensive techniques. What could he do? Slip, duck, that's about it. He never liked to block much, he didn't parry a whole lot, shifts and leans violated his style, his feet never seemed to get him out of trouble. No, Tyson was far from a defensive master; he was good at avoiding jabs and countering, but his whole set up was too rehearsed. In random order, he'd just perform the bag and pad drills he'd learned in the gym. No initiative.
It all has to do with styles though. Tyson is not the kind of guy that will use his feet to avoid punches. He comes forward and goes for the knockout. He did use blocking by the way, i remember both Tubbs and Berbick throwing a hook to the body and Tyson had his arm right there in time. He uses a high guard most of the time when he comes in. Because of his short arms and stature, these are the only ways to effectively use blocking while still being able to counter.

I wouldn't call him a defensive master since that implies that his style revolved around defense, like Whitaker or Mayweather, but his defense was certainly top notch. He only got hit with a hand ful of power punches during entire fights in his prime, all against much bigger men with longer arms.
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Old 12-15-2007, 06:58 AM   #24
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

I never said anything about 'why' or 'because' or 'how.' I said Tyson wasn't a defensive master, and he wasn't. Don't justify it.

But even with Tyson's style, he could have been a much more dynamic and versatile fighter defensively. He should have watched Roberto Duran and Wilfredo Gomez more closely.

And on Tyson's blocking, of course you can find the odd example. I never said he never blocked.
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Old 12-15-2007, 07:23 AM   #25
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

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But even with Tyson's style, he could have been a much more dynamic and versatile fighter defensively. He should have watched Roberto Duran and Wilfredo Gomez more closely.
I have to say that before the Douglas fight Tyson rarely ever got hit, let alone hit hard. He was incredibly hard to hit for a heavyweight. Obviously it didn't hurt that he had guys gun shy due to his awesome offense, but it really was freakish how little he got pinned. The big question is was decline and, well you know, the Rooney thing all huggers place such faith in more responsible for his getting hit a lot more later vs the likes of Holyfield or was it just the extra class he faced - or a bit of both.
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Old 12-15-2007, 07:30 AM   #26
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

Luckily for Tyson, being heavyweights, his opponents weren't quick enough or agile enough for him to require such a versatile defence. It served him well, but it could have been better. But who am I to criticize?
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Old 12-15-2007, 07:37 AM   #27
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

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Originally Posted by Manassa
I never said anything about 'why' or 'because' or 'how.' I said Tyson wasn't a defensive master, and he wasn't. Don't justify it.

But even with Tyson's style, he could have been a much more dynamic and versatile fighter defensively. He should have watched Roberto Duran and Wilfredo Gomez more closely.

And on Tyson's blocking, of course you can find the odd example. I never said he never blocked.
Well of course Gomez and Duran were better. That's because they were midgets. Heavyweights are always less skilled, less fast etc than smaller guys. For a heavyweight, Tyson's defense was mastery.
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Old 12-15-2007, 07:39 AM   #28
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

Trousers.
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Old 12-15-2007, 07:44 AM   #29
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

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Luckily for Tyson, being heavyweights, his opponents weren't quick enough or agile enough for him to require such a versatile defence. It served him well, but it could have been better. But who am I to criticize?
Your comments were fair. Tyson's defence was structured and not as natural or instinctive as a Benitez, Gomez, Duran etc. As you say it served him well. Unfortunately we didn't see it fully tested vs a great opponent during his short peak run.

Last edited by Mohak; 11-11-2006 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 12-15-2007, 10:05 AM   #30
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

I cannot think of any other heavyweight with a comparable build and style who exceeded Tyson's defensive prowess. Frazier was predictable. Marciano's reaction time wasn't even close. Tua wasn't exactly flexible.

Rooney had Tyson doing drills until his reactions were automatic. He incorporated logic (if A then B, or C, or D; if B then B, E, or F) and Tyson may have been more mechanical in his response, but for a man whose inner child dominated his decisions, this is wise. If Tyson thought much like an Ali or any stylist, he'd have gone into a fetal position before you knew it. So Cus and co. designed Tyson to act and react, not to think.

(We all saw what happened after Rooney left the camp. Tyson's skull was vacated too. He had no answers on his own which is why he started on things like "kill or be killed.")

In the eighties, There was also efficiency involved. Tyson would slip punches by inches, step in short steps, pivot, bob, and waste no movement. His energy was reserved for hard and fast punching.

And then there was fast twitch fibers that you just don't find in HWs with that kind of physical structure and musculature. This is what made him so dangerous.

In sum, Cus saw a rare set of raw materials in the young thug, and gave him a format build on efficiency and designed to minimize any need for the kid to think things through.

To Tyson's credit, he employed an excellent format with almost perfect execution. He was able to incorporated evasiveness with offense smoothly and efficiently --like Duran, only with far less sophistication, ease, or style.
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