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Old 12-15-2007, 10:12 AM   #31
JohnThomas1
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89
I cannot think of any other heavyweight with a comparable build and style who exceeded Tyson's defensive prowess. Frazier was predictable. Marciano's reaction time wasn't even close. Tua wasn't exactly flexible.

Rooney had Tyson doing drills until his reactions were automatic. He incorporated logic (if A then B, or C, or D; if B then B, E, or F) and Tyson may have been more mechanical in his response, but for a man whose inner child dominated his decisions, this is wise. If Tyson thought much like an Ali or any stylist, he'd have gone into a fetal position before you knew it. So Cus and co. designed Tyson to act and react, not to think.

(We all saw what happened after Rooney left the camp. Tyson's skull was vacated too. He had no answers on his own which is why he started on things like "kill or be killed.")

In the eighties, There was also efficiency involved. Tyson would slip punches by inches, step in short steps, pivot, bob, and waste no movement. His energy was reserved for hard and fast punching.

And then there was fast twitch fibers that you just don't find in HWs with that kind of physical structure and musculature. This is what made him so dangerous.

In sum, Cus saw a rare set of raw materials in the young thug, and gave him a format build on efficiency and designed to minimize any need for the kid to think things through.

To Tyson's credit, he employed an excellent format with almost perfect execution. He was able to incorporate evasiveness with offense smoothly and efficiently --like Duran, only with far less sophistication, ease, or style.
I'll pay this one - hot damn!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-15-2007, 04:15 PM   #32
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

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Originally Posted by Manassa
I never said anything about 'why' or 'because' or 'how.' I said Tyson wasn't a defensive master, and he wasn't. Don't justify it.

But even with Tyson's style, he could have been a much more dynamic and versatile fighter defensively. He should have watched Roberto Duran and Wilfredo Gomez more closely.

And on Tyson's blocking, of course you can find the odd example. I never said he never blocked.
why cant he justify it? he can do what he likes as long as it helps. i know your a ESB addict but you cant ever argue wit the champ of esb....chris pontious!

yes hopkins and 2 of the current HW champs are muslims too...and many more famous ppl

there have been some good posts from...all of you!

i have not seen duran fight much, i know he was good defensively, he had a similar style to tyson. how did he adapt later on. was he still very aggressive, bobbing and weaving, was he stilll throwing alot of punches etc?

i actually got this whole idea from watching hands of stone. when i watched a couple of his welter/middleweight fights, he wasnt rushing forward, he would take a few steps forward, and he would still slip punches well. he seemed to do the moves fine, only thing was he wasnt as aggressive in the fights i watched.
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Old 12-15-2007, 06:16 PM   #33
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
I cannot think of any other heavyweight with a comparable build and style who exceeded Tyson's defensive prowess. Frazier was predictable. Marciano's reaction time wasn't even close. Tua wasn't exactly flexible.

Rooney had Tyson doing drills until his reactions were automatic. He incorporated logic (if A then B, or C, or D; if B then B, E, or F) and Tyson may have been more mechanical in his response, but for a man whose inner child dominated his decisions, this is wise. If Tyson thought much like an Ali or any stylist, he'd have gone into a fetal position before you knew it. So Cus and co. designed Tyson to act and react, not to think.

(We all saw what happened after Rooney left the camp. Tyson's skull was vacated too. He had no answers on his own which is why he started on things like "kill or be killed.")

In the eighties, There was also efficiency involved. Tyson would slip punches by inches, step in short steps, pivot, bob, and waste no movement. His energy was reserved for hard and fast punching.

And then there was fast twitch fibers that you just don't find in HWs with that kind of physical structure and musculature. This is what made him so dangerous.

In sum, Cus saw a rare set of raw materials in the young thug, and gave him a format build on efficiency and designed to minimize any need for the kid to think things through.

To Tyson's credit, he employed an excellent format with almost perfect execution. He was able to incorporated evasiveness with offense smoothly and efficiently --like Duran, only with far less sophistication, ease, or style.

Solid Post.....Welll Said.
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Old 12-15-2007, 07:41 PM   #34
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
I cannot think of any other heavyweight with a comparable build and style who exceeded Tyson's defensive prowess. Frazier was predictable. Marciano's reaction time wasn't even close. Tua wasn't exactly flexible.

Rooney had Tyson doing drills until his reactions were automatic. He incorporated logic (if A then B, or C, or D; if B then B, E, or F) and Tyson may have been more mechanical in his response, but for a man whose inner child dominated his decisions, this is wise. If Tyson thought much like an Ali or any stylist, he'd have gone into a fetal position before you knew it. So Cus and co. designed Tyson to act and react, not to think.

(We all saw what happened after Rooney left the camp. Tyson's skull was vacated too. He had no answers on his own which is why he started on things like "kill or be killed.")

In the eighties, There was also efficiency involved. Tyson would slip punches by inches, step in short steps, pivot, bob, and waste no movement. His energy was reserved for hard and fast punching.

And then there was fast twitch fibers that you just don't find in HWs with that kind of physical structure and musculature. This is what made him so dangerous.

In sum, Cus saw a rare set of raw materials in the young thug, and gave him a format build on efficiency and designed to minimize any need for the kid to think things through.

To Tyson's credit, he employed an excellent format with almost perfect execution. He was able to incorporated evasiveness with offense smoothly and efficiently --like Duran, only with far less sophistication, ease, or style.
Good stuff and great read, as i usual.

If you don't mind i will make one comment which i think you won't disagree with: while Marciano's reaction time was indeed slower than Tyson, he made up for it by his unorthodox movement and being a little less predictable with non-textbook punches.
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Old 12-15-2007, 11:45 PM   #35
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Default Re: Do you think tysons style could be used in late-career?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Good stuff and great read, as i usual.

If you don't mind i will make one comment which i think you won't disagree with: while Marciano's reaction time was indeed slower than Tyson, he made up for it by his unorthodox movement and being a little less predictable with non-textbook punches.
Absolutely. Marciano's thick legs, long torso, and short arms were perfect to maneuver guys where he wanted and then punch the living hell out of him.

I did another post yesterday, I think, about Marciano unsalted defensive capability and we all need to recognize the genious that was Charlie Goldman. Marciano bent at the waist, forward, and into his usually taller opponents. This is usually not the way to do it. But Dempsey did it too. Rocco positioned one arm to defend against the uppercut and moved his man backward and then threw a sledgehammer up and over, or a hook. His base are those short squat pillars, and his relatively long torso leans perpendicular with the ground as his arms maneuver his man around -like a sumo. The difference between Marciano and a sumo is that he is moving his man into the spot where he wants to land a big shot that is propelled by this forward motion. You know how trainers always tell guys not to lean backwards or move backwards in a straight line -well Marciano forced this to happen. Then threw overhands.

He would also bend towards the right -Mayweather does too, but his is defensive, whereas Marciano was at less of an angle there and was really shifting his weight onto his right leg to gain leverage for his right or to begin that long weave to his left to spring a left hook. This is pure physics.

Someone compared Marciano's punching to watching a man lift concrete slaps and tossing them. Marciano would shift his weight, and come up in a spring and such to maximize the force. Dempsey also bent forward at the waist and would use similar motions to maximize his force. I don't know about you, but I see a correlation between those similar aspects of their styles and serious power.
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